This is a transcript of SYS Podcast Episode 542 – Comedy Legend David Zucker on Ryan Reynolds, Matt Stone, Trey Parker and Hollywood..
Ashley
Welcome to episode 542 of the Selling Your Screenplay podcast. I’m AshleyScott Meyers, screenwriter and blogger over at sellingyourscreenplay.com. Today I am interviewing comedy legend David Zuckerwho wrote such classics as Naked Gun, Airplane and BASEketball. Today he’s here to talk about some of his current projects including his comedy class called Master Crash which we dig into and he gives us some great tips for writing comedy and specifically writing spoof. So stay tuned for that interview.
SYS’s Six Figure Screenplay contest is open for submissions. Just go to www.sellingyourscreenplay.com/contest. Our early bird deadline is March 31st, so if your script is ready definitely submit now to save some money. We’re looking for low budget shorts and features defining low budget as less than six figures in other words less than one million US dollars. We’ve got lots of industry judges reading scripts in the later rounds. We’re giving away thousands in cash and prizes including a thousand-dollar cash prize for the grand winner. We have a short film script category as well, 30 pages as less, so if you have a low budget short script by all means submit that as well. I’ve got a number of industry judge producers who are looking for short scripts so hopefully we can find a home for some of those. If you want to submit or learn more about the contest just go to www.sellingyourscreenplay.com/contest. If you find this episode valuable please help me out by giving me a review in iTunes or leaving a comment on YouTube or retweeting the podcast on Twitter or liking or sharing it on Facebook. These social media shares really do help spread word about the podcast so they’re very much appreciated. Any websites or links that I mentioned in the podcast can be found on my blog in the show notes. I also publish a transcript with every episode in case you’d rather read the show or look at something later on. You can find all the podcast show notes at www.sellingyourscreenplay.com/podcast and then just look for episode 542.
Quick few words about what I’m working on. The rom-com that we shot in November is coming together. We got our first look at an assembly cut last week. I think it looks fantastic. I’m really excited to finish the project and share it with everyone. So now I’m going through the film and making notes for the editor. That’s sort of the next step and I’m creating, He was doing that first assembly cut, I’ve been off creating content for Kickstarter and it’s really a lot of TikTok videos, short form TikTok videos. I sort of do a little class about how I created this micro budget film and I go through all of the different steps in short little videos, and I’m going to release those leading up to our Kickstarter and then release them leading up to our actual film release. But that’s taking me a lot of time as well. But now we have this assembly cut so I’m putting, watching that and then creating notes. To me, this is the funnest part of the filmmaking process. There’s no, it’s an indie film, micro budget indie film. So, there’s no like hard and fast deadlines. There’s no executives breathing down our neck. It’s a creative process and since it is low budget, we do have the time. It’s that old film adage, good, quick and cheap. You can have two but not three and this is going to be cheap because it’s a low budget. So. if we want it to be good, it’s not going to be quick. And I really always think about that when I’m working on these low budget films. Just give us enough time to make good creative decisions. But as I said, to me, this is the funnest part of the process. There’s just so many decisions that need to be made from the visual, color correction, which takes to use, how to compose a scene. There’s story issues that we’re finding. So finessing those, rearranging some of the scenes, putting some scenes sooner in the movie than maybe we had originally thought. All of those kinds of decisions. There’s lots of cuts from the protagonist’s cell phone point of view. So we’ve got to figure out how that’s going to work and what that’s actually going to look like. You know, we’re already talking about some pickup shots. You know, what shots are we missing? What can we do to fill those blanks in? The poster, the trailer, all of that stuff. We’re trying to figure out sound. There’s going to be a number of songs. The film takes place in a bar. So, there’s a number of songs that are played just through like at the bar and they dance and that sort of stuff. So, we need some actual songs, license some songs and put those in there. So, I think there’s maybe three or four spots where we’ll need actual songs. And then, you know, obviously a score as well. We’re talking about that. You know, the score is really key. I mean, this is assembly cut. So obviously there is no score, but that’s something we have to start thinking about and figuring out. I know there’s a lot that has been done with AI in terms of music. So, I might start there and just see if we can figure something out with AI. But if not, maybe we’ll bring on a composer. But again, this is all sort of the fun of the project. You know, everything sort of, we shot it. We’ve got all of our footage. You know, now it’s a matter of just, it’s just like this big puzzle and now we just have to put it together. So, there’s lots of things to figure out. But again, this to me is really the most fun part of the process.
So hopefully in a month or so, I will have at least a teaser trailer to show. So, keep an eye out for that. But that’s the main thing that I have been working on. So now let’s get into the main segment. Today I am interviewing legendary screenwriter, David Zucker. Here is the interview.
Ashley
Welcome David to the Selling Your Screenplay podcast. I really appreciate you coming on the show with me today.
David Zucker
Well, I appreciate being asked to go anywhere. Sure.
Ashley
Okay, good, good. So maybe to start out, you can just give us a quick overview of your background. How do you get into the entertainment industry? And even specifically, take us back before Kentucky Fried Movie. What were you doing to kind of break into the business?
David Zucker
Oh, well, we were in Milwaukee. So, you know, there’s nothing going on there in entertainment business except local TV stations. And I even applied there and always was turned out. My dad suggested I buy a new car and I did. And he thought that would impress them, but it still didn’t. So, it’s so we started our little theater with my brother and Jim Abrams and another guy we knew from high school. And that was the first Kentucky Fried Theatre. And we did a live show in Madison and we did that for a year. And it was gangbusters. I mean, so we were doing stuff that nobody else was doing. It was fresh. It was original. And people thought it was very funny. So, we moved the show out to L.A. where we established the Kentucky Fried Theater in L.A. on Pico Boulevard. It was one hundred and forty seat theater. And we ran that for five years and it became the most successful small theater in L.A. history. And then but we didn’t want to do theater. We had no interest in that. We really want to do. We thought we’d be a TV performing group or movies, something. So, we wouldn’t have to perform on stage. But and so then we wrote Kentucky Fried movie and actually we wrote Airplane first. But, you know, nothing doing. So we did Kentucky Fried theater. I’m sorry, Kentucky Fried movie. And that was, you know, twenty-two separate sketches. And that was really successful. But we went back to our Airplane script, rewrote it and then still got turned down by every studio in town, except for there was one guy. So, and I have found in my career, sometimes there’s only just there’s just one person. It just takes one person to either take a chance, be crazy, believe in you something. And then that, you know, then that opened the door. So like, yeah, Michael Eisner had us into Paramount. Yeah.
Ashley
And so just take, I just want to touch on a couple of things you mentioned there. Like, for instance, were you and your brother always doing comedy? Were you just natural performers or did it gravitate towards comedy? Did you do drama, horror? Was there other things or just comedy is what you guys always loved from an early age?
David Zucker
We were class clowns in high school, and grade school, and comedy is the only thing we ever wanted to do. I think Jerry had ambitions to go beyond that, and he did. And he did a movie called First Night, and he did Ghost, and he produced something, a script that Bruce Rubin had. And so, Jerry has done some serious work and done well with it. But I have not been interested in anything except comedy, and not many people can do it. So, the challenge is to get people to believe in doing something new and original. So, Hollywood wants to do just what’s been done before. So, people doing it, they don’t know what they’re doing, they’re not original, and it was just stupid.
Ashley
Yeah. So, again, these are mostly screenwriters, people trying to write stuff and break in. What do you recommend now? You know, here we are decades later. Do you recommend starting a theater troupe, doing comedy? I mean, all the online avenues, TikTok, YouTube, do you think that’s a good place to start? What do you recommend to young people today, trying to do basically what you did, have a similar career to what you had?
David Zucker
I don’t know what the theater scene is and if people go to theater, I think they do. I mean, the Groundlings is popular here in LA and they do improv. I think somebody could start a small theater and do sketches, I guess, I don’t know because I’ve been out of that world for so long. We just used it as a launching pad, a means to an end. But now, of course, you have the internet. So, there’s YouTube, you can start your own channel. But if you want to do comedy, I would suggest learning how to do it and not pretending that you know how to do it or thinking that it’s easy. Like the people who did the recent Naked Gun, they just, I think it’s arrogance. They thought this looks easy, but it ain’t. It’s just not easy. You have to learn, so that’s why I started Master Crash. So you go to Mastercrash.com, it’s a free community. And I just want to make sure people do it right.
Ashley
So, let’s talk about Master Crash. I think that’s a good segue into that. What is that all about? When I was just researching for this interview, it sounds like you have 15 rules that you teach in that. Maybe you can talk about that a little bit. What’s one rule just to get wet our taste a little bit and we can get into it. But what are some of the things you teach in that?
David Zucker
Well, the 15 rules came from, you know, when we, back in 1972, when we started our theater, and when we came out of Madison, we were just young guys, we, you know, we thought we were real funny, it was anything goes and we were funny. But, you know, on our stage show every week, we kind of learned what worked and what didn’t. And that’s important, because the pace of the show had to keep going. We didn’t do any advertising, it was just word of mouth. And so, we evolved a series of 15 rules, starting with some guy came in, a friend of Jim’s, and said, you know, that sketch, that particular sketch was great. But, you know, you were doing a joke on a joke, you should correct that. We said, what’s that? What’s a joke on a joke? So, he said, you know, if you have a person in the foreground doing something serious, then the background can be funny. And if the background is serious, then you can have somebody in the foreground saying something funny, but you can’t do both. And that’s another rule, which is, well, that is it’s a joke on a joke. So that’s rule number one.
Ashley
One of the things that I’ve seen from writers, I get a lot of scripts. I run a screenwriting contest. And one of the things I, I, I do think people think spoofs are an easy cause you can just grab a joke from anything. But one of the biggest problems I see when I read someone spoof is it often, when you can pull a chainsaw out of your pocket, you know, there’s not a lot of stakes, there’s not, you’re not concerned that the person is actually going to die. If they can always just pull a machine gun out of your things. How do you get around stuff like that? How do you keep the tone and the stakes in line with a spoof?
David Zucker
It’s a good question. We have the rules, 15 rules, just about jokes. And then there’s a glossary of about over 100 terms. And one of the things we teach is you have to keep, even a crazy spoof, you have to keep it grounded in reality. And let me use Naked Gun 4 again as an example of what not to do. In the beginning, there’s a bank robbery. And there’s a little girl who comes in. And she takes off her mask. And it’s Liam Neeson. So, at that point, I always think the audience goes, oh, great. Now we don’t have to care anymore. And that’s death for comedy if you don’t keep it grounded and based in reality. And then you can do crazy jokes. And that’s another rule, which is that didn’t happen. If you remember an airplane, Robert Stack and Lloyd Bridges are saying very seriously, we can’t land. Now they’re on instruments. And then we cut up to the plane. And they’re all playing instruments, completely messing with the reality. But then the next time we cut to them, it’s like nobody acknowledges it. There’s no instruments, which is what we call that didn’t happen. So it’s very, very particular, the rules. And then the glossary is there’s a million things to know, which we weren’t geniuses, but we did learn over 40 years how to do this. And Seth McFarland, he’s good at family guy and Ted. But that ain’t spoof. So you can’t just come in and say, hey, we just knock this off. It’s just like the way I feel about I would love to write a sitcom because my house is crazy. And everybody who comes here thinks it would make a great sitcom. But then I watch Seinfeld and Curb Your Enthusiasm. And I have my share of arrogance, but I’m not arrogant enough to say, well, I can knock one of these off because I’m so great. No, you stay in your lane. And it’s another thing that I kind of teach in this course. It really goes beyond the specifics.
Ashley
So, let’s dig into your writing process specifically. And maybe we can talk about, um, star of Malta, um, but really just sort of some general questions, like with star of Malta, take us through your writing process. You collaborated with Mike McManus and pet prop. How does that actually work? Look, do you, are you guys in the same room? Are you guys on a zoom call sharing things? Does one person write a scene and then you guys critique it just sort of described to us how the pages get created in a situation like this?
David Zucker
The best spoof is when you have what we call materials. And so we watch serious movies. And for airplane, for instance, we watched a movie called Zero Hour. Did you ever remember that?
Ashley
No.
David Zucker
Oh, well, you go on YouTube and put in Zero Hour Airplane. It’s scene for scene. We copied the plot, a lot of the dialogue. We even bought the rights to the movie. And that’s what airplane is. Actually, it’s Zero Hour. It’s a melodrama about a guy who boards an airplane. He’s got PTSD from the war. There’s food poisoning. Pilots are knocked out. He’s got to fly the plane down. So that was all in one. So for Star of Malta, we just love this film noir, anything made from 45 to 55. And Zero Hour was 1957. So it’s in that ballpark. There is a movie called Detour, very famous noir movie. And I can’t even think of who the actors were that were in it, but it was a B movie. And it was filmed in 1945. And so, we took that plot, but it only went two acts. So, another thing we teach in Master Crash is if you want to write a movie, you got to know the three act rules. And first act, you get your hero up a tree. Second act, you throw stones at him. And the third act, you get him down. And it’s very important to have a character arc. And a lot of people don’t know that. We didn’t know that when we did Top Secret. So, Val Kilmer, we wrote a movie for him. He didn’t have a character. So at the end, the audiences were not as satisfied as they were with airplane. So we took Detour, which had two acts. They appear to have run out of money in that. It just ends. Partially to budget and partially toward to the haze because of the haze code. You have to have, if a hero kills somebody, the character has to get a comeuppance. You have to pay the price. Anyways, so we added a third act, a whole third act to Detour. And a love story that actually has a happy ending. And it’s great. It’s a wonderful movie, low budget, $12 million. So, we somehow got the money raised. We’re in pre-production and we’re casting. But now we have to, for the money to kick in, we need to cast the lead, the lead actor.
Ashley
Gotcha. So, then what does that look like in the actual writing process? You guys watch detour? Did you option the rights to that or it’s just…?
David Zucker
No, that’s in public domain, it’s so obscure, so.
Ashley
But then you guys are in the same room pitching jokes.
David Zucker
Jerry and Jim and I were always in the same room. It was really before computers, before Zoom, before us, but Pat Prof lives in Minneapolis. So, we got him sometimes on Zoom, sometimes just on a phone call and McManus would come into my office here and we would, the three of us would write together. And then usually we would call it what Pat always said – “Tinker’s to evers to chance.” So, Mike would write the scene and then Pat would do his stuff and he’d send it back to us and I would work my stuff with it. And it really, it went around and a lot of stuff, Mike and I kind of wrote in the same room, but it was a definite three-way equal collaboration.
Ashley
And so how much time when you’re doing something like that, how much time are you guys like coming up with an outline versus actually cranking out script pages? Did you get on zoom calls and just kick around a basic outline?
David Zucker
I think the basic outline took a few weeks, maybe. And then and then we said we put cards up on a board on a bulletin board, which we have in the office. And it just says the headings act one act two act three, we put the cards, we arrange the cards. And then you know, it says I like to see the structure, I like to see it visually. And then we start to write. And then we actually came up with a first draft in a few months, I guess. And then we gave it to, you know, one of our friends, who is an expert story person. And I remember, she said – Well, this is just not great, because you, you don’t have any sympathy for the main character. And so she wrote all this in notes. And she said – PS, I hope you’ll still be friends with me. So we actually appreciate it. You know, I always, I always appreciate feedback. You know, some people, you know, I don’t think listen to any feedback, they don’t listen to anybody. So you know, that’s how you get Naked Gun for it.
Ashley
So. how did you find this person. I’m going to imagine someone, I mean you’ve done have such a body of work it’s probably difficult to find people that are willing to actually challenge you and say this isn’t good enough?
David Zucker
Well, this is a good friend of ours. She is one of my housemates. I have a bunch of people who live with me in my house and, and pay me rent. So, you know, and they’re my friends. So, she’s here. She’s also a book coach and she’s also one of my partners in Master Crash. So, she’s an excellent story person really knows what she’s doing. And she’s now working with me on a German comedy script that I’m writing. So, you know, she knows her stuff. There’s also some other people I know who I may run, run it by before we actually go into production.
Ashley
Do you do some table reads for comedy? Like, do you get some actors? Do you kind of test the comedy out at all?
David Zucker
We read it out loud to ourselves. And that’s enough. Yeah, that really is a big help.
Ashley
So, you mentioned you climb up the tree, you throw stones at the tree, and then you bring the guy down at the tree as your three-act structure. How do you approach screenplay structure in terms of Blake Snyder’s Save the Cat, Sid Field? Just how do you feel about those sort of very template, sort of pragmatic approaches to it?
David Zucker
I liked those books, but, you know, we do throw some terms around, okay, the inciting incident, you know, they, this German movie that we’re doing, it’s for Amazon. And they, I guess for streaming, they have to grab the people in the first five minutes. So, the inciting incident that we had is a, you know, a character gets murdered and our guy, our hero is accused of it. So, they said, and we had it happening on page 25. And I said – Oh, no, you got to have it in the first five minutes. So, we figured out how to do it. So, you know, I think we can adapt to the changing needs of what’s going on. But, you know, basically we try to write just story. You got to follow story and you can’t do side trips for jokes. And another thing that we teach in master crashes, something that we learned on airplane. Once we got to Paramount was that to make jokes, plot points and plot points jokes. So you’re just not doing, you’re not stopping just to do jokes. The only thing the audience cares about, and I learned this the hard way, so I can kind of shortcut people who join our Master Crash so they can avoid the mistakes that I made and Jerry and Jim is, is to, you know, always stay with, stay with the plot and don’t do side trips. And, you know, you just can’t, and we even have terms for it. Brick-a-brack is just extraneous jokes that the audience is going – when is this going to be over? And you don’t want that to happen.
Ashley
Yeah, yeah. So, with Star of Malta, I’m sure the people that are listening to this podcast, you know, they’re trying to break in, they’re trying to get their first script option and purchase. And I’m sure from where they sit, it seems like someone with a long resume like yourself can probably get movies made fairly easily.
David Zucker
I can’t, let me stop you there.
Ashley
Yeah, I know. Believe me. I’ve been around long enough to know that’s true, but maybe you can talk to what are some of the hurdles that someone that’s been in the industry for a while has some connections. What are the hurdles to getting this movie made? What do you have to go through to get this made? You have a script you like, you guys wrote it. What was those next steps? What were those next steps?
David Zucker
We’ve had the script for seven years and it’s me. Everybody says, oh, I’m this great, great, you know, talented, you know, guy, but it’s still like, I couldn’t even, I mean, I can’t emphasize enough. I couldn’t even get my own franchise. I mean, Naked Gun, I created the character, I created the franchise and then they go, some guy blows in.
Ashley
Yeah.
David Zucker
And they get and you know, and it’s part of it is ageism, you know, total ageism in Hollywood. And so, I know they wanted a young director, ooh, we’re going to get a young. Young doesn’t mean shit. It doesn’t mean anything. If you don’t know what you’re doing. You know, there’s nobody who could direct Star Malta, you know, I’m the only one who can do it. It’s just like, so it’s so specific. And, and so for young people starting out, I guess you can get an agent, you do a sample real of what of what a see a sample scene maybe. I’m not sure I’m not great at giving advice because I myself struggle.
Ashley
But so, talk about this. It sounds like you’ve got this one basically set up now. So what were those steps? You had a script you like. How did you get it to the point that it’s at now?
David Zucker
Okay, I was at a big agency and you know trying to get Naked Gun 4 done and they sent in people competing projects. So, I left the agency and I went to another agent and he you know he’s you know very supportive and I didn’t go to for him to find me work. I just need an agent to negotiate the deals. I turn down stuff, not that I’m you know that much in demand because I’m an old guy. They just don’t want old in Hollywood. They want a young guy. So anyways I you know don’t get me started. So yeah, but this guy my agent found a production company and got the script to them and they love the script. So, I’m just telling I don’t know if this is advice to anybody because it’s me. I’m a specific kind of example but this guy this guy the head of this production company loves it. He thinks this is my Annie Hall. You know I mean it’s that much an advance from the spoof from the Naked Gun style spoof.
Ashley
Gotcha. Well, I can’t wait to see it. So why no sequel for BASEketball? As someone who came to L.A. in the 90s, that was a movie that me and all my friends watched and quoted. Are you working on a sequel to BASEketball?
David Zucker
No, but somebody had, Ryan Reynolds wanted to do his company really was interested in doing a game show reality show based on BASEketball. And I think it would be a great idea, but I’m not exactly sure what’s happening with it now. It’s been going on for a while. I think it’ll probably take my getting a success in with Star Malta to put me on the map again, to get some of these other things done. The other reason why was that you may not know this, but you know, BASEketball was not a hit when it was first out. It became a hit years later and everybody loves it. And it’s my son’s favorite movie, you know, et cetera, et cetera. But they won’t make a sequel of a movie which didn’t perform at the box office. And from my bitter experience, they probably replaced me anyways. That’s Hollywood. It’s so Hollywood and I’ve been through it.
Ashley
So, I like to wrap up the interviews just by giving my guest a chance to recommend some stuff. And this is something I just, I was thinking about this over the weekend as I was preparing for this interview. Are there any movies you’ve seen over the last 40 years or so that you thought were really, really funny, were excellent films, but they just never quite were big successes for whatever reason. Are there any, just something that was maybe a little below the radar, something that you’ve seen in your career that you really thought was excellent, but just never quite got over the hump.
David Zucker
Nothing, nothing, no comedies come to mind. Usually if a comedy is good, and if it has a good character development, it will succeed. And I mean, I loved Groundhog Day, but that was a big hit. Generally, if they’re good movies, they are big hits. The March Brothers did a very funny movie called Duck Soup, but it wasn’t a good movie. It had funny scenes in it, but it didn’t hold together as a movie. Night at the Opera was more of a three-act structure, and they had character development. And it’s all the audience cares about. It’s what I’m trying to teach.
Ashley
Yeah, yeah. Are there any young comedians coming up that you’ve seen or mentored or gotten to know that you recommend?
David Zucker
Yeah, well, I mentored Matt Stone and Trey Parker. I gave them their first job when they came to LA. Trey needed to buy a car. Now they’re like billionaires. And I really respect their talent and their originality. And they’re good guys too.
Ashley
Commitment, yeah, to not sell out and to stick with it.
David Zucker
They never sold out. They always did it their way and they’re not the sellouts that you know some people are who aren’t original or who copy things or who steal somebody else’s franchise. I mean you know I took over the scary movie franchise but it was my own original idea and you know the characters were the same but we totally changed the whole thing made it PG-13 and I don’t know what the Wayans thought of it but those were legitimate because they you know they were original. And I also think the Wayans are great talents really very original and you know I respect them and you know they would never have tried to take over the Naked Gun franchise. The Wayans, they declined. I don’t think they were able to make a deal with Bob. I think Bob Weinstein came to them first and somehow the deal didn’t work out and they signed a deal for another movie somewhere else but you know it wasn’t the same situation as my being excluded from us and Naked Gun for it.
Ashley
Yeah. What’s the best way for people to keep up with what you’re doing? And you can tell us what’s the URL for Master Crash.
David Zucker
It’s just mastercrash.com. Go to that and I’m also @TheDavidZuckeron Instagram.
Ashley
Okay, perfect.
David Zucker
I post stuff on Instagram all the time.
Ashley
Okay, perfect. We’ll round that up for the show notes as well. So David, I really appreciate you taking some time out of your day today to come and talk with me. Fascinating interview. It’s great to get your perspective.
David Zucker
Sure. Yeah, this was fun. Thanks a lot.
Ashley
Thank you, we’ll talk to you later, bye-bye.
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On the next episode of the podcast, I’m going to be interviewing screenwriter Brandon Violet, who has worked on a number of animated kid shows, including Coco Mellon Lane. He’s very open about everything, how he got his start, tons and tons of insight into writing children’s animated shows, television shows. So, keep an eye out for that episode next month. That’s the show. Thank you for listening.