This is a transcript of SYS 516 – Being a parent of a child actor with Bryan Cantrell .
Welcome to Episode 516 of the Selling Your Screenplay Podcast. I’m Ashley Scott Meyers, screenwriter and blogger with sellingyourscreenplay.com. Quick Happy Holidays to everyone. Hopefully we’re all going to hit the ground running this year and really get after some of these projects, I definitely have a lot of things I want to try and get accomplished. So hopefully we can all work on all of our projects and have a successful year. So Happy Holidays. But first today, I’m interviewing screenwriter producer Bryan Cantrell. He just produced a cool low budget film called Abigail, which stars his daughter in the lead. He’s got an interesting story. His daughter, as I mentioned, is an actor. And he used to drive her around to auditions when she was younger, he would network in a very friendly, organic way, with people that he met at these auditions. And in fact, this feature film, Abigail, in a roundabout way, all started with one of those chance meetings at an audition with his daughter. So, he talks about all of that and really goes into some great detail about how this project came together for him. He’s also a writer with a number of his own projects in development, too. So, we’ll dig into those as well. So, stay tuned for that interview.
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Ashley
Welcome, Bryan to the Selling Your Screenplay Podcast. I really appreciate coming on the show with me today.
Bryan Cantrell
Ashley, thank you so much for having me. I’m really excited to talk to you.
Ashley
I’m excited as well. So, to start out, maybe you can tell us a little bit about your background where you grew up, and how to get interested in the entertainment business.
Bryan Cantrell
I grew up in Tucson and when I was a kid, I used to do acting in Old Tucson Studios, which has had like a crazy history. They did most of like High Chaparral and Young Guns and a lot of movies, Westerns that we all know and love. And so, when I was a kid, I used to work there on a show called Father Murphy. So, it was like a Little House on the Prairie spin off. So that’s what got me into it. And then I ended up moving to San Diego as an adult, and just kind of played around with it. And then my daughter wanted to do acting. And so, I got involved with her just kind of following her around and driving her up to LA for a million auditions and things like that. That’s what was my entry point is an adult into it.
Ashley
So, let’s just talk briefly about your Shark Tank appearance. I watched that. And I’m always just curious to hear maybe just walk us through a minute or two. How do you actually get on Shark Tank? How do you get chosen? And we just what is that process like?
Bryan Cantrell
Well, you know, I feel almost embarrassed about saying how easy it was for us because usually it and everyone else I’ve talked to you it’s such a hard and treacherous road to get on to that show. But we had had a product that we did a Kickstarter for and it was a portable campfire. It was basically a giant candle. In a tin we used like recycled wax and egg cartons. And we made this product and put it on Kickstarter. And we did, funded or whatever. And we found out that the insurance on that thing was going to be sky high. So, we kind of just cancelled it and let it go. And then I was vacationing with my wife and daughter and I got a message from my partner and he says – Hey, we have an email on our Facebook or some message on our Facebook, Shark Tank producers want to talk to us about this radiate campfire. And I’m like I didn’t even know we had a Facebook page. So, then the message was like, I don’t know 60 something days old. So, it was like a shot in the dark. I called the number that they had left. And sure enough, they’re like we’re filming in two weeks. If we can get the paperwork done, we want you on Shark Tank, we love your product. And so that was like this crazy moment where we scrambled to put the whole thing back together and form the company again. And sure enough, we went on Shark Tank and they overfilled you know there’s like maybe they take 70 entrepreneurs for the season or wherever they’re filming. And there were hundreds of them there. And we were just lucky enough that the product was interesting. And the sharks had a lot of aggravation with my partner. And so, it made for good drama. And so, we got to be on Shark Tank, and it aired, like in January of 2018.
Ashley
And how does that affect the sales? I mean, it sounds like for all practical purposes, you raised this money on Kickstarter had to refund that money, because you didn’t have the money to pay for the insurance for cables. And then so how does that then? So now you’re back, and you so you have manufacturing setup. How did you actually… did you get a deal with the sharks? And did it actually increase sales?
Bryan Cantrell
We got a deal with Robert Hershey back, and he’s fantastic. So, he made the deal with us. And then when we aired, it was huge. And we were mildly prepared, I should say. It took us a while to fill all the orders, because we were manufacturing it ourself within another business at that time. And it was great, and we were accelerated and it was going really well. And then like a month later, he gave us a call. And he’s like; Hey, I’m going on the view, so if you guys want to come, I’d love to have you there with me. And so, you got to fly to New York, and you’ve got to give away a radiate campfire to every audience member. But that’s it, and then we’ll air. And so, we show up to New York, that was probably like we had to be there in like 10 days. So, another scramble to get that done and get the product shipped there. And he took us on the view and that was bigger than Shark Tank. Because we always thought our product was for like a camper, like a hardcore outdoorsman or something like that. Well, it turned out it was the perfect item for home use for making smores at home from the backyard. And so that audience that the view had was probably three times bigger than our Shark Tank airing. So, it was amazing.
Ashley
Yeah. So, wow, that is incredible story. So, let’s talk now back to writing and film career. So, let’s talk about some of your shorts that you put together. I noticed that you did a short called the Detention Boys. I think that was one of your first projects. Maybe you could just talk us through that briefly. This is something that you wrote and executive produced. So, guess what, talk us through what’s that project all about? And then how did you get that project off the ground?
Bryan Cantrell
I really have always loved filmmaking and never actually made something myself all by myself. So, I enlisted my daughter to help. I had her direct it. And she played a little part in it. But I just had people that I knew come together and play this stupid mockumentary about 40 something year old guys reforming a boy’s band. And so, it’s ridiculous and stupid. But it was super fun to make. And I learned a lot of lessons. It was really just what can I do locally, without trying to go up to LA and hiring a bunch of people and just do it all DIY. And so that’s what happened. We did some film festivals, it was super fun. But that was like the first thing that I ever made. It was a blast.
Ashley
Gotcha. And just I always sort of like to throw this out to people. How did you have the competence to go and do something like this? When you didn’t have a lot of experience in film, you hadn’t been on a ton of film sets? How do you just get the competence to go and just make a movie?
Bryan Cantrell
Well, I think making a movie is really difficult because you need friends who know how to do at least one job within that structure, right? I thought I could write and so I wrote it. And I thought I could do a good enough job acting. And because I’d done that in the past. And my daughter, I knew that she could direct because she had been directed and kind of talked about doing it for a long time. So, my skill set ended there. Right. And I actually I have some business, and a lot of filmmaking is just about the business side of it. So then next, I had to find someone who with equipment, which I had a guy who did. He was specifically a photographer, but he had all this video equipment and lighting. So, he was the cinematographer. So, I kind of just cobbled together a few people that had done a little bit of each job. And we had the interest to come on board for that type of thing, right? It’s a little bit of a time sync. So, then I just it was filmed at a college. And so, schools and colleges are great because you can get the locations pretty inexpensively. Usually, all you have to do is pay for the custodian and the insurance to film at that time. So really, the whole thing probably cost me maybe $1,500. You know, most of its spent-on food, because I didn’t really rent anything. And so that’s you, I didn’t have the confidence. I just thought, well, I’m going to do it. It’s going to probably be the worst thing I ever do. But the next thing will be better. Right that then I think that’s the biggest step for me as a writer to a filmmaker, there is you got to make. I don’t want to say it’s crappy, right? But it’s your first thing. It’s not going to win Oscars. It’s not going to, you know, win Sundance, but just make it so you learn all those lessons.
Ashley
Yeah. So that’s very, very wise. I hope people really listened to that. So, let’s talk about another short, you did call 22. This is one that you just executive produced. I think your daughter was also starring in that maybe you can talk about that project a little bit. I’m curious, like, at this level, what does an executive producer bring to a project like that?
Bryan Cantrell
Okay, so on this one, this one led to the feature film that we made after this, because what I wanted to do with this film is I had met this woman who was a producer and a director. And I really wanted to work with her, I really thought that she had really great skills. It’s kind of like one of the it was a project to kind of get to know somebody in the industry. And I had seen this script, because it was written by one of my writing partners, and it was a great, you know, 11 page short, that had a great arc in it. And I want to work with my daughter. So, at this point, my daughter’s an actress, I trust her that she’s going to do a great job. And she’ll come on board and work with me, and it’s super fun. If you have family members that are in the business, you want to work with your friends, and why not work with somebody in your family. So, it was a part that when she read it, she was really excited about it, and 11 pages, so you know, 11 or 12 minutes short, somewhere within that range, that’s a perfect place to start. You know, it’s watchable, if you can find something that tells a story within that timeframe, even better. And so, when I talked to the writer, we both went into it, money wise to make this. And so, the director came on board, just to see if we all liked working together and how it would come out. And so we scheduled it, we filmed it over two weekends in Los Angeles, which was a little, this was more costly, because we did pay professionals to do some of the jobs, even though they were working way under rate. They were doing it because it was a passion project over the weekend. And then I had to pay to be in Los Angeles to do all the things right. And so, the director edited and did the scoring and all those things. So, she did the bulk of the work on this project. And we submitted it to film festivals, and it did great. But what we wanted to do with this is have something that her and I and this writer had made along with Ava and pitch it to investors for the next project the feature film, and that’s what it was.
Ashley
Correct. So, we’ll dig into that in a minute. Just let’s talk about some of your other writing projects. I noticed on IMDb Pro, you have a number of projects that you’re a writer on some TV series, some features, and maybe you can talk about that, where maybe just a couple of highlights there, what projects you have going and what are you doing to move those projects forward.
Bryan Cantrell
I’m in the scenario where I’ve written a ton of things, and nothing has gone into production and been completed, right? We’ve had several successes with getting things optioned. And that’s been great. But still waiting on that one project. Because most of the things that I’ve written are way above my paygrade to make myself, I don’t have investment, I haven’t proven myself enough for somebody to give me several millions of dollars to make something. So, these are all trying to find a home with another production company. The one I’m most excited about is one called Skinwalker, who I co-wrote with another writer, and that one’s gone through two different production companies with just getting so close to a deal with Lionsgate, it was almost there and then COVID happened. So, I’m sure that’s a situation that’s happened with a lot of people with either the strike or COVID, where you’re almost there. And then the brakes were put on because of things outside of your control. Skinwalker is a horror Western with that is kind of like a wolf man story. And it’s a great character piece, one location for the most part production. But it’s a creature feature, which needs a lot of money and attention to the creature. And so, you always talked about how when you’re if you’re going to make something low, but you have to keep these things you have to put a producer’s hat on to keep in mind where your budget is going to be. And this is not that move. I can take your advice on that.
Ashley
Gotcha. So, as you’re going along your career here, how are you getting these options? Are you cold querying production companies, are you just networking or going to network events, maybe you can just give us some sort of idea about how you’re actually contacting these production companies getting your scripts read, and ultimately getting some of these options.
Bryan Cantrell
Well, I’ve definitely taken the road to cold calling and queering. And those have not bared fruit so far for me. Most of them had been through either somebody I knew in the business, showing them the product, or through ink tip.
Ashley
Gotcha, gotcha. And then you mentioned just and again, I’m just sort of trying to get a sense of sort of your networking, the scope of your networking. You mentioned you had this cinematographer on your short, who did more still photography, but had this video equipment and stuff like how did you meet a guy like that? What was that connection? Do you just meet them at a coffee shop one day, or do some smaller projects?
Bryan Cantrell
We met at the YMCA gym, like when a long, long time ago, and we just were friends at the gym. And it his name was Phil and I knew him as Photo Phil. And so, when I thought about doing something like that, I’m like, I’m going to see a Photo Phil has a good video camera and lighting and if he wants to come on board, so you know, bought him a couple beers and talk to him and convinced him to dedicate a couple of weekends to it.
Ashley
So, let’s just talk about the networking just for a second here. So obviously, your daughter is acting, so she’s getting gigs. You’re meeting people that way. You’re doing some of your own projects, getting stuff out there. But you know, how do you push like, as you know, the dad of an actress? Oh, by the way, I’m a writer, you know, how do you politely sort of bridge that gap and not seem creepy or weird? How do you actually start to network and let people know that hey, you know, you’re in the business too.
Bryan Cantrell
I’d say my advice would be never do that, while they’re on the job. Like if you’re there, that is not the place or time to do any of that stuff. But hopefully you get the opportunity at rap parties or, you know, if it’s something that’s going to a film festival, and it’s a different setting, then you can talk about those types of things. I’ve really tried to not cross boundaries with people who are in the workplace in Hollywood, they get it all the time they it’s the worst thing that you can do, I think I’m sure there’s some people that have access to and maybe are not savvy enough to. But afterwards, once it’s all done, once the work is done, then you can kind of build up a personal relationship with them to approach that.
Ashley
Yeah, I think that’s excellent advice. I think that’s very savvy. In fact, I think the savvy person is actually not pushing themselves so much. So, let’s dig into the feature film, Abigail, your daughter is the lead in it. You’re an executive producer on this project. Maybe just quickly, you can tell us what is this project all about? What’s sort of the logline for it?
Bryan Cantrell
Okay, so the logline is that it’s a twisted teen Love Story wrapped in a 70s thriller. And the story is basically it starts with a violent opening. And then it moves into the introduction of a drama filled relationship between the main character and her mom, and a bully teen that lives next door that they’ve just moved to town. And she’s made the main characters made friends with and then that those relationships get twisted into a revenge story. That in the end reveals that Abigail has a dark and violent past. Super fun.
Ashley
Gotcha. Yeah. So, it sounds like the 22 – the short sort of lead into this, this is the same director, a lot of the same cast, a lot of the same pieces, the same writer. So maybe you can just talk about that a little bit. Number one, how did you meet Gunnar Garrett, he’s the writer on this project. He also wrote 22, you’ve worked with him before you mentioned that he was a writing partner of yours. So maybe you can talk to that relationship. And this can kind of give us some real examples of your networking and sort of just how did this relationship come about? And then how have you fostered over the years?
Bryan Cantrell
Gunnar and I met his daughter was an actress a few years older than mine. And when we met in an audition room, and we were the only two dads that were there, you know, that’s usually when I would take Ava, my daughter to the auditions, and I’d be in a room filled with moms that were typically the ones taking their kids to those auditions. And so, to see another dad there was when I did see another dad, there just felt a little bit of camaraderie. We give each other like a little wink or a little point like, hey, and so Gunnar and I met and at that time, I was struggling with my first screenplay. And he had mentioned that he’s a writer. So, we started just talking our conversation about the writing process, and he had been doing it for a while. So, we committed to send an email to each other to exchange scripts. And so, he sent me stuff and you know, he was great and he critiqued what I was doing and kind of helped me figure out the whole craft of it. And so, it probably took a couple years before we collaborated. I just had another Western script that I was stuck out. And I just thought, you know, I’m not going to get through this, I need somebody else’s help who’s good. And so, I asked him if he would be willing to collaborate, and he was. And so, we ended up that was the start of our writing relationship together. Now, Gunnar was much further along than I am, and I think he’s much more talented writer, he had this script, the Abigaille script that we ended up filming was with a couple different production companies as well. It had been optioned and it was getting ready to go into production. And they had actually, for the one that was going into production, and hired Ava, he had recommended Ava for the role. And so, the production company had hired her. And then it fell apart like a week or two before that it was going to go into production for whatever reasons, I don’t even know. And then it started up again with another production company. And that was going to film right before COVID. And that one died. So over like a two-year span of history, Ava had been tied to this movie and Gunnar had almost had this made, and it just kept falling apart. And so, then COVID happened and radiate was exciting for me, but we had just made a deal to sell that company. So, it wasn’t like I had money to invest in a movie. But I had time. Gunnar had said – Hey, what about you coming on board to help with this movie Get it actually made, he says, I still have the investors, the phone numbers that were on it before. And maybe we can bring one of them back on board. And so, my idea was, well, they’re going to have to trust us with money. And so that’s why we needed to make the short call 22. And so, we went ahead and did that. And once that was finished, and had won some accolades, we kept going back to the investor, who at first was just like, you know, I already lost money on this thing, I don’t do anything. I’m done. And so, then we got into the holidays of I think it was 2020. And then he started to have a conversation with us again, and by 2021, 22 had one amazing accolades. And he ended up coming back on board to fund the production of Abigail. And so, we had myself and the director Melissa and the writer, we all came together and formed an entity to get this thing made.
Ashley
And so what is in it for an investor like that, and I’m not so interested in like, his specific name, or job or anything like that. But what is the motivation for a guy like that, to just invest? I mean, clearly, you were very invested in this project. Number one, because you want to learn about the entertainment industry, you want to move ahead your own career. And number two, your daughter was cast in this project. So, your incentive is very, very clear. But like just a random investor like that, what is your pitch to him? Because, you know, ROI is always a very difficult thing to promise on an independent film. So, most people are not getting into this for the AI. Hopefully, they’re not getting into it for the ROI. But what is your pitch to them? And just ultimately, what motivates an investor like this to come on board?
Bryan Cantrell
I think in this case, the investor wanted to do something creative. And maybe people, if you put yourself in the shoes of somebody who has the amount of money that would take to invest in a movie, and that can be of different scales, right. But if you have the discretionary income to put it into a project that is, let’s say high risk, right? You would want to do it not? Yes, there’s the reward, hopefully, like you make something and it’s lightning in a bottle, and you get the financial reward for it. But it’s more about doing something with your money. And it doesn’t specific, thankfully, it didn’t have to be something that was like a something that had an agenda, right? Because a lot of times independent movies are made with an agenda driven product. Does that make sense, Ashley? And this isn’t that this is a commercial, like we wanted to make something fun, a commercial film. And so, the investor wasn’t interested in a motive for that other than let’s make something cool and fun, that has the chance of making money I don’t want to throw away money. This is not what my goal is. I don’t want to make something that is an art piece I want to start small and make something fun that people will have a good time watching and hopefully paying money to do. And so that was really the pitch with this movie to this investor. Probably every single investor is going to have a different take on those things. And my advice to somebody who is looking for investment, probably steer clear of Hollywood investors, people that are specific because they’re so jaded. If you are trying to make a movie for your first feature, you need to keep it small budget wise location wise, so that it has a good chance of returning on investment. And try to find a district distributor that who would be interested in looking at and of course, they’re not going to buy it, since you have done nothing but to prove yourself, but somebody who has an interest in that genre, so that you have a place for it to land when it’s done. Because, like, as a business, it shouldn’t be a net zero, right? I believe that this movie that we made is going to have a return on the investment for the investor. Because we looked at the genres that actually make money. And we looked at the marketplace to see how that happens. And we’ve tried to develop this to feed that market. And my advice is to try to do your homework on that just like, it’s difficult to make a comedy that’s going to make money, because you got to have the characters or the actors that can make a good comedy, and people would go and trust that they’re going to have a good time laughing at that horror thriller genre that’s different. I think the reason that everybody goes into that in there, you know that there’s a reason, right? Ashley, you know, this as well, from your road, you make something that is either action oriented or oriented or thriller oriented, because the audience is much broader, and more forgiving about I don’t want to say the quality, but just about independent filmmaker doing those things.
Ashley
Gotcha. Yeah, no, I think that’s excellent. An excellent point, I think the thing you’re really getting to is that every investor is different. And as the person who’s seeking that investment, you need to understand what your investor is actually looking for. And in this case, it doesn’t sound like he was looking to prop up some social issue or social cause that he believed that he honestly wanted to make a fun movie and potentially get into the film business where he’s making money, which is a different thing than what you’re talking about with like maybe a social justice movie.
Bryan Cantrell
And I believe that there is a market for independent movies. And we’re kind of looking out at this point in time. And I know you have, you know, something new as well in your bag of tricks. But there’s a, we’re kind of in a good spot. Because when you have a right now, if you have a finished product, that market has really opened up because the soundtrack and the writer strike, drag on for six months, we came out of COVID, there was a ton of products that came out. But now all of a sudden, there’s this moving window as we move into 2024, where there’s not enough content. And the market is once again hungry for content. So, I think we’re in a great opportunity here if you’re in production, or you just got something in the can, you might have an easier time than others to make money on your films.
Ashley
Gotcha. Gotcha. So, let’s talk about the screenplay for Abigail a little bit. What were some of the things that you really liked about this screenplay as you read it? And I’d be curious, just to get your thoughts to not just as an executive producer, but also as a father. You know, I have two daughters myself, and they have luckily have no interest in acting. But there’s definitely things where you can say, Oh, that’s a good movie. But boy, I don’t know if I’d want my daughter being in that. So maybe you can talk about that. What were some of the things you liked about this script, both as an executive producer and as a father?
Bryan Cantrell
I liked that it is a fun movie that has a good amount of drama. In the middle of it. It. It almost like one of the things that I really liked when I was reading it was it has a, you know, as a screenwriter, you know, the trope of man, those first 10 pages got to grab you, right? And that’s what happens in this movie. The first 10 pages are really fun, and they grab you and then it moves into this drama where you’re kind of like, what’s going on, and you’re kind of curious, and you know that something is lying underneath there that isn’t right, it’s not sitting well, and as it gets closer to about a 30 minute mark, or that that 1/3 end of the script, you’re like, oh, yeah, this is not going wow, this is something’s going to happen. And then there’s a big moment that switches it into a race to the finish and how is that going to end? I liked the way that my heart changed at different moments when I was reading it. And I could view realize what was going to happen on screen as well, which I think is like when a script is well written, you don’t need to see the pictures of what’s happening. It really is showing you in the words what’s playing out on screen. And I think that that’s what it did for me. And then as far as like my daughter playing, and she loves to play crazy. I mean, she’s done that so many times. And it is something that she’s always drawn to as a character that is not totally right. I don’t know what that says about her. But she really, really does that well. So, I knew that she would be great at it.
Ashley
Gotcha, gotcha. So, what’s next for you? What are you working on now? And what’s going to be on your calendar the next year?
Bryan Cantrell
So, this movie is like a calling card to the next one, right? This next one I want to do is a I want to do a zombie survival movie. And you know, it’s, like I said earlier about my own scripts, I never write to the to try to make a low budget movie. I am always writing too big for my britches, basically. So, the next movie that I have, that I’m trying to develop is from another screenplay that another writer did. And right now, I really want to focus on products that my daughter can be at, at this point in time in our relationship, while she still will do things that I make in her career. I want to utilize that and have the good times with her onset and throughout the process. So, zombie survival movie is what I’m looking at. And then if I had to, if I got a chance to do something, and that I wrote, Gunnar, and I the other screenplay writer for Abigail, he and I wrote this great surf movie, and there’s no surf movies made anymore. And I really want to make a surf movie, living in San Diego and growing or not growing up, but in that culture for so long. I want to make a surf movie.
Ashley
Yeah, yeah, for sure. So, I always like to wrap up these interviews just by asking you the guests. If there’s anything they’ve seen recently, that they can recommend to a mostly screenwriting audience, anything you’ve been watching on HBO, Netflix, Hulu, and you know, it’s not a trick question. Just something you think that’s really great that maybe screenwriters should take a look at.
Bryan Cantrell
Yeah, I’ve been watching on Netflix, and I haven’t finished it yet. But I’m pretty close to the end, a show called bodies. It’s a limited series. It’s a great, like, especially from a writer standpoint, it’s so clever the way … have you seen this?
Ashley
No, I have not seen it.
Bryan Cantrell
Okay, so this is a it’s about a crime that basically took place in like four different time periods. But it’s the same body. And it’s always about a detective investigating this same crime. So, there’s got to be some sort of time travel when you get to the end of this, but it’s a late 1800s, early 1900s current time and then in the future, like, maybe 25 years. And so somehow this all ties together. And I just think so far, I’m just like, right after the first episode, I’m just so drawn in and it’s so cleverly done, well-acted, and I don’t know any of the actors that are in this. They’re all British and it takes place in England. And I’m just loving it. So, yeah, that one.
Ashley
Okay, perfect. Yeah, that’s a great recommendation. I’ll put it on my list. And I’ll and I’ll definitely check it out. And how can people see Abigail, what’s the release schedule going to be like with this film?
Bryan Cantrell
It’ll be in select theaters in Los Angeles, on December 5th is the premiere and at that time, it also releases on video on demand. So, you know, Apple, iTunes, Amazon, Xbox, PlayStation, all of those places where you can rent or purchase a movie.
Ashley
Gotcha. And what’s the best way for people to keep up with what you’re doing? Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, any good comfortable sharing, I will round up for the show notes.
Bryan Cantrell
I’m old, so the only thing I’m on his Facebook. So okay, you can find me on Facebook.
Ashley
I’ll link to your IMDB page to people to check that out. And we’ll link to the to Abigail IMDB page, as well. So, Bryan, I really appreciate you coming on the show and chatting with us today. Good luck with this film and good luck while your future films as well.
Bryan Cantrell
It’s been a pleasure. Thank you.
Ashley
Perfect. We’ll talk to you later. Bye.
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On the next episode of the podcast, I’m going to be interviewing writer and director Todd Bogan, he just did a cool indie thriller called Hidden Exposure. He’s got a great story. He started working in the business for an ad agency at really at the bottom, just as a PA getting coffee, doing very basic stuff, but also working his way up. He eventually got into other parts of the commercial production process, like editing and producing. But he got on set and he really learned how production works. So, we talk about this background in the ad world, and just again, just being involved in the production of commercials and sort of just learning how that all works, and ultimately how that led to some of his short films that he produced. And then now he has his first feature film hidden exposure, which stars Rumer Willis and Richard Kind, so keep an eye out for that episode next week. That’s the show. Thank you for listening.