This is a transcript of SYS 517 – Look Books and Visual Outlining With Todd Bogin .
Welcome to Episode 517 of the Selling Your Screenplay Podcast. I’m Ashley Scott Meyers, screenwriter and blogger with sellingyourscreenplay.com. Today I’m interviewing writer-director Todd Bogin. He just did a cool indie thriller film called Hidden Exposure. He’s got a great story. He started working in the business for an ad agency at the very, very bottom as a production assistant just getting coffee, doing very basic stuff, but he worked his way up and started doing other things on the commercials like producing and editing. This got him on set so he could really learn how film production worked. We talked about this background at the agency how that led to some of his short films and now to his first feature film – Hidden Exposure, starring Rumer Willis, and Richard Kind, so stay tuned for that interview.
If you find this episode valuable, please help me help me give me a review in iTunes or leave me a comment on YouTube are retweeting the podcast on Twitter or liking or sharing it on Facebook. These social media shares really do help spread word about the podcast, so they’re very much appreciated. Any websites or links that I mentioned the podcast can be found on my blog in the show notes. I also publish a transcript with every episode in case you’d rather read the show or look at something later on. You can find all the podcast show notes at www.sellingyourscreenplay.com/podcast and then just look for episode number 517. So now let’s get into the main segment. Today, I’m interviewing screenwriter and director Todd Bogin. Here is the interview.
Ashley
Welcome, Todd to the Selling Your Screenplay Podcast. I really appreciate you coming on the show with me today.
Todd Bogin
Thank you for having me. I love the podcast.
Ashley
Well, thank you. So, to start out, maybe you can tell us a little bit about your background where you grew up? And how did you get interested in the entertainment business?
Todd Bogin
Yeah, for sure. I was born in Chicago, I grew up in the western suburbs, and moved to New York, essentially, the second I became an adult. I didn’t go to film school, but I started as a production assistant. So, I essentially started by, I started in radio, and then moved over to film and TV, mostly working for agency work, commercials, ads, getting coffee, all that stuff. And that was about 12 years ago. And then just slowly learn how to produce, learn how to edit, learn how to write, learn how to direct and I still do agency work a lot too. And then started writing and producing my own shorts during that time, using my skill set from that.
Ashley
So, a couple questions. So why New York City? Being from Chicago, why did you go to New York? Why didn’t you go to LA?
Todd Bogin
When I went to New York, I always wanted to be a filmmaker in high school. That’s all I dreamed about everything like that. But I actually never thought I would be a filmmaker or pursue it. So, there’s a couple years where it wasn’t even on my mind. And I have a lot of family in New York. So, it was a lot of just like being around family and getting to explore. New York City, ironically, is kind of what led to being a filmmaker in many ways. Who knows if I could go back and it probably would have been LA, I mean, the weather’s a lot nicer.
Ashley
Yeah, no kidding. So, just a quick question sort of about that agency work. Number one, do you have some tips for people if they want to get into the agency work as a writer, director, or even just most likely a PA kind of starting out, do you have some tips for people that maybe want to start out agency work? And really, the bigger question of that is – Would you recommend this as someone that’s a writer, maybe a writer, director that wants to fresh out of college? Is this a good path to kind of learn your craft and move up?
Todd Bogin
Absolutely. I 100%, recommend it. It’s a great way to learn your craft, because you’re writing for a client, essentially, you’re writing for a product, you’re writing for something that’s given to you. And when you’re making film, you’re writing for an audience. It also teaches you on a basic form. You know, you’re on set for a day or two, you’re not in set for 30 days or whatever. But it’s teaching you how sets work. It’s teaching you how pre-production work, it’s teaching about post production works. And you have to be completely organized because you’re working with a lot of money, a lot of big businesses, and a lot of everything is pinpointed. You know, you can’t just improvise a McDonald’s ads on set. Right? So, it teaches you fundamentals. And I feel like it teaches you discipline in production and creativity. And for writing, yeah, because I think you’re learning how each word matters. So, when you’re writing copy for and not that I’ve been a copywriter, really but when you’re writing copy for an ad, you’re learning about how every single use of word and language and even your punctuation is very important. And this works with screenplays. And then in terms of like you’re filming and stuff, if you’re directing and you’re doing that it’s like how in 30 seconds do I tell a story so I fully recommend it. The other thing is, it’s a good source of income while you’re struggling to get other stuff made, and you’re meeting other people who are likewise. To break in, I essentially started because I knew a producer so I asked if I can PA onset, people get in multiple ways. Obviously, you can just apply I mean people going in through like the creative round, you can just write stuff and send your stuff and apply that way who you know people to come in and be a writer for them, coming in be a producer, post producer. For me, I actually edit a lot. So that was a good weigh in for me once I didn’t want to produce on set all the time because I wanted to step back and be able to concentrate on my feature films. So, I actually have edited a lot too. So, my other advice is, learn a skill set that maybe not everyone is going for with agency work. Editing for agency is really great, because you can work from home a lot, and you get booked out and it’s good day rate and stuff. Producing is great, too. It’s a lot of work as well. But yeah, that’s my advice. And I actually think it gives you such great fundamentals for production that although feature film sets are different, it just stuff relates.
Ashley
So, maybe you can just speak very quickly, just on the moving up in an agency, it sounds like you started out as a PA, that’s kind of the entry level job, getting coffee and moving up. At some point during this first year or two, as you’re doing sort of the low-level stuff. Did you start to get an idea, hey, maybe I could direct or maybe I could produce? And then how do you actually start to let people know in an appropriate manner? Hey, you know, I’m the PA getting coffee. Here’s my feature film script. How do you sort of navigate this and sort of inappropriate way so you’re not kind of annoying or weird to the, to the people that are that you’re trying to get a job from?
Todd Bogin
Well, I’ll give you the experience from probably being weird to people. So yeah, so I mean, I knew I wanted to direct when I was 14 years old, and I had a black lab and I cut holes in a white t shirt and pretended he was a cow loose in the town, you know. So, for me, that was always in my mind when I started when I was like, I was like, I’m going to go get coffee. And then suddenly, I say to my producer, you know, the guy who hired me, I’m like, I’m going to get coffee. Thanks for hiring me and in the back of my mind, and look at everything that director does so I can one day do myself. The idea is A) be respectful, be the best PA there is, right? It’s like I’m under the belief or if your job is to sweep the floor, make it the cleanest floor you can possibly do, right? And I think with this, it like helps you move up because people like this PA is like not giving me attitude, and he’s taking it serious. I feel like I can trust him to move on up. In terms of letting everyone know about directing and how to go about that. I kind of like follow directors around on set, and I definitely no one ever yelled at me. But looking back I definitely like had some cringe moments where I crossed a couple lines, because I was asking directors why they were using a certain lens on like, a diamond commercial. And I don’t think they even fully knew and but I just kind of asked and I think I was a little too upfront at points. But I never got fired. So, that’s good. And then in terms of the writing stuff, I got to be real with you. Like a lot of people did not take me serious for a long time, like not in a bad way. I think they just go everyone has a screenplay. So, my advice on that is actually a little bit different. My advice on that is make that short film with your friends, you’re learning from your meeting from there, and if you can borrow the equipment from there and versus expect someone else to make it for you from that world. So, that’s my advice with that. But you got to be upfront and let everyone know what your goal is. I was always very vocal, like, my goal is to direct, my goal is to produce, you know, and I took a lot of effort and learning how production works, which helps you produce your shorts that can get you to directing features.
Ashley
Yeah. Okay, so let’s start to talk about your directing features and sort of moving in that direction. So, at what point you’re working for the agency at this point. So, you’re making a living, you’re doing these editing gigs and production gigs. At what point? Do you start writing your own features or writing on shorts and going out and producing them?
Todd Bogin
Yeah, for sure. So, I would say, I was still PA and when I was writing my shorts, maybe around, I still, let’s say, my first job as a PA was 2012-13. I think my first short was made around then. But it’s happening while it’s going on. I mean, I’m writing constantly, I was writing, you know, you have downtime in an office, you disrupt a job, and you have a slow day or whatever, and I’m writing in the office, you know, it’s too late. Now, I’ve switched jobs, so they can’t fire me. But I’m like, you know, I’m FTX open on the thing right in there. So, it has to, I’m a big believer, you have to continuously do it. Like you wouldn’t home at night, after 16-hour days on set, you have to put in an hour at least. So there has to happen constantly. I don’t think it’s like in five years from now, I’m going to start doing this. It’s like because also it’s so like writing takes a long time to learn my first few shorts were terrible. Some people were like, oh, this is cute. You’re going to have to do it on your own. Because probably because my shorts were not well written at the time. And I had to take it the hard way. I had to take the punch on the chin and but at least like it taught me how to like, better write it. And there’s many people out there if you read some letterbox reviews, I think I still don’t know what I’m doing. But yeah, but yeah, so I just believe it’s in tandem, like, I think you have to continuously working on it and as hard as it is because it’s as hard as it is even when I moved up to being a producer, and then being an editor as well. It’s like there’s a lot of time out of your day. and it’s a lot of mental brain-power, but you have downtime, you know, you’re waiting for notes at times, you’re waiting for this call to come in. And there’s times to do that. So, it’s, continuous.
Ashley
So, let’s dig into your latest feature film Hidden Exposure, maybe just start out you can kind of give us a quick pitch or a logline, what is this new film all about.
Todd Bogin
Yeah, for sure. It is a thriller, a drama thriller, essentially about a woman who is left by her partner who he was living off her. And he leaves her for someone else he’s living off of and the woman who has left needs to tell him something. And she goes to Tom something and ends up meeting his new girlfriend, and they actually connect. And then I would like to say, all hell breaks loose from there. So, it’s like your classic like, thriller. One thing that I went for with this movie was I tried to have the lead character, Sabina played by the wonderful Liana Liberato. I tried to have her follow the circle of abuse, the cycle of abuse, essentially. So, like, where she starts and where she ends is like following this cycle, in a sense, and I think we did a decent job. And I’m pretty proud of it. And yeah, birth features.
Ashley
So, where did this idea come from? What was sort of the genesis of this idea?
Todd Bogin
So I’ve done like I said, I’ve done a bunch of shorts around 2019, I had a short come out that was like about this woman’s violin being stolen, it was all about like identity, and what happens when your identity is taken from you, and what happens when you were able to confront that, and I was on the festival tour with that, and I was like, walking around. And the idea of me was like, what if this person was this character was able to revenge what happened to her in a violent way, like movies do, but then when she got there, she had no idea how to actually do that. And I wanted to take, like, the damage from someone’s identity being lost someone being abused, and follow them through that to show like, each of their actions are essentially because of that, and the mental distortion from that. So that was really the genesis now, I listen to all your podcasts. And a lot of the interviewers always have like, they had these brilliant ways of approaching the screenplay, the outline, they note card, this was probably the sixth feature I wrote. And all the first five of them were not great. This was the first one that I really was like, I’m going to see this through, um, I had some people who were interested in making a feature with me based on some shorts. And so, I outlined it a little bit, but I went through like 72 drafts. And as each draft went on, the story got more and more clear to me, honestly, there was like, really like a movie I wrote where I had this idea. I knew my theme, and I knew what I wanted to discuss. But the plot and everything kind of revealed itself as I like, explored whatever mental stuff was going on in my brain that came out on this.
Ashley
So, let’s talk about the collaboration. On IMDb, there’s two other writers that are credited. So maybe you can talk through that, how did this collaboration work? What did you guys do? What were their parts? And maybe you can just sort of talk through what the collaboration actually looked like?
Todd Bogin
Yeah, no problem. So, for those for Molly Jeffers and Frederick J. Richter. So essentially, I started writing the script, April 2019. And they came in early 21 maybe, like, we were definitely like pandemic level. And so, I was about 60-70 drafts into the script, we started sending the script out to some actors, and I was getting great responses. I had, like, you know, 300 pages of storyboards and camera creatives and all this stuff ready to go. And essentially the response I was getting from a couple actors was, the script is cool, the story is cool, but you’re missing like the tendons, you’re missing the meat and bones of some specific scenes. And I don’t come from a … I’m a writer who had to write to learn how to … I’m a director who wrote to direct and this is part of my writing process and my journey to learn how to write. So essentially, I had to like be honest with myself and I was like, do I want to have my ego give me an okay screenplay? Or do I want to like let go of my ego and like bring in some writers who can add some meat to this, add some a one sauce or something you know? So that’s what happened essentially, so with a molly we I had extensive notes and he came in and beat up some stuff just like you’re just like some color to the scenes, added a scene or two but like mostly like just some depth to the character and background and helped me with my dialogue, which I feel like now I understand a lot better at the time I was still learning. And then Frederick, who is one of my closest friends, and I’m, I’m covering one of my next feature is with we’re essentially done with it. He’s pro. He’s a master from AFI, and screenwriting. He works on HBO shows, and he just came in and like made it a pro script. The difference is a scene where two characters in a room talking about something and then he adds like they’re in the room. And then there’s something going on with the couch next to them that’s just like adding like little depth and things like that to a story. And it’s been one of the scenes is the Rumer and Richard Kind seen towards the end of the film. There’s just some really beautiful dialogue. And I had that scene. And it was very basic. And I didn’t know what I was saying. And he came in and just like made it this very touching, beautiful scene that I always get people talking about. And it’s actually the scene that got Richard to attach. So that was my process. It wasn’t a sitting in the same room, it was more like this is the notes we need. And my next second script I wrote with Frederick called heavy ashes that we’re hopefully going into production next year. That was kind of similar. I wrote a couple passes myself, and then Him and I are sending the FTX back and forth over email, essentially.
Ashley
Gotcha. Now, did you meet these two? You mentioned, Frederick is one of your best friends. So maybe you can talk I know, there’s going to be screenwriters listening to this thinking, well, gee, how do I get hired for those gigs? Or how do I network with a director that’s making movies? So how did you how did you meet these two fellas?
Todd Bogin
So, Molly was through a mutual friend, who had worked with him and said, he was like a guy who can come in and do like the meat and potatoes and like, do the dirty work and then hand it off. I wanted to hand it off to a polisher at the end. So that’s how I met him. It was really simple. It was it still is a very nice guy. And was just very great to work with. And Frederick, I met through a mutual friend as well, like around 2019-2020, who had also we had both worked with the same person on multiple jobs. And they essentially were just like, I think you’d get along with this guy. You guys should know each other. It was literally just one of those things. And we got along and I’ve read a bunch of his own screenplays that are just like, I think really brilliant. And so, I asked him to do and he gave me two weeks on lockdown rain, had an exposure level dilemma, and they changed the name. So, and yeah, so that was really it. And I’m always looking for other co-writers and stuff. Like, my dream is like I have a learning how to have a couple of co-writers or I can just continuously write with or almost stepped back from writing in many ways. But yeah, that’s really it. I don’t know, like any, if there’s like, I’m sure like hitting people up and reaching out helps. One thing I do as a director and your website has been great for this with screenplay awards, and like unproduced scripts and stuff. I’ll reach out to writers on those I reached out to a bunch of writers on like, under a million-dollar produced stuff on go to cover fly, I as a director have actually reached out to writers and have built relationships through some writers whose scripts I’ve read, and possibly with some writers who are looking for directors to do their scripts. The opposite might work for them reaching out to directors who are doing like, you know, indie films that are that they can at least pitch their script with, where they’re not the messenger go through like CAA or who is going to block them. So, that’s just some advice I can give.
Ashley
Okay, yeah. No, that’s excellent to hear. That’s fascinating. So, let’s talk about your writing, your writing process, and how you do it. When do you typically write and where do you typically write? Are you a morning person and late person? Do you have a home office? Or do you write things you go to Starbucks, maybe just talk about what your writing process looks like, especially as it relates to something like Hidden Exposures, you’re doing these, you know, the first draft through that draft number 60? What is your day typically look like?
Todd Bogin
Yeah, great question. I’m a morning person, I have a cat who wakes me up at 5am every day. So, and I’m a runner to so usually, I live in Manhattan, I’m in LA now but I live in the hands. So, like, I’ll usually get up at like, 5:00 – 5:30, I’ll go for a jog in Central Park or wherever. And I’ll come back but I’m back by like 6:30 – 7:00. And it starts with the piping hot pot of coffee from usually say bars blend. I don’t know if they hear this and want to give me some free one. But um, and then I’m writing morning so like, I’m like 7am to like 10:30 – 11 is like my golden time like I can I can just like zone out put on some, some tunes, like put on some headphones and I’m writing from home mostly, I have a little like setup at home. I mean, I live in New York. So, like a home office is more like a little corner and against the wall, you know? So that’s what I’m doing when I’m writing and then I always have like, I’ll always put it aside I’ll go for a walk do some other work. A lot of times I after that I’ll go to the creatives. So, I’m obsessed with InDesign, Adobe InDesign and Pinterest. So, I’ll go on Pinterest. If I’m writing a scene, let’s say like a love with only rain, for instance, hitting exposure of throwing rain. If I’m writing the scene where she’s on the train heading upstate, I’m going on Pinterest and I’m looking at like specifically shot stuff from there. It’s weird looking trains. Ways someone would rest their head against the window shot deck where you’re looking at scenes that were shot with that how does it look on a wide lens Tesla going to close things. And I’ll spend hours doing that not writing actually. So, I’m I work through the visual mostly. And then I come back later in the day around like four to seven. And then sometimes weirdly at like 9 or 10 at night, I’ll have an urge. But the morning is my time. And it’s after I run and my running is like, I run in the morning because I have anxiety. I don’t, I’m like, I don’t drink. I don’t have any vices really. So, it’s like, my running is like my way of just forming my thoughts, getting calm with myself kind of meditating. And usually when I’m coming back from run, I’m like, all my ideas are there. So yeah.
Ashley
So, how much time do you spend in Final Draft cranking out pages versus outlining? It sounds like you’re more of the get into final draft and do a bunch of rewrites, as opposed to plotting it all spending tons and tons of time plotting it all out? But maybe you can speak to that a little bit.
Todd Bogin
So, up until essentially the last year, essentially 95% Final Draft plot in and out rewriting revision mode. Why did I do that? Why didn’t I spend the time outline it walking around, like, oh, you’re an idiot, you’re an idiot, you know. So that’s mostly what I’ve been doing. The past year is I’ve been working on other scripts with, with really talented writers, I’ve been stepping back through the outlining. So, I have another script that I’m working on. Now, that’s probably a year away from being done that I haven’t touched final draft on. And I have, like, 70-page outline on, and that I’m going into Final Draft soon. But for the most part, I’m final drafts open. I’m doing it. I’m working through the scenes that way, you know, so and I’m not saying that’s the way to do it, because I understand that that’s not the way they teach you to do it.
Ashley
Yeah, yeah. So, it’s amazing to me, though, just doing this podcast, and having people come on, there’s a lot less consensus on this than I think is sort of the conventional wisdom is you do the index cards, and you spend a lot of time outlining, but you’d be surprised there’s a number of writers that have come out. I mean, it’s I don’t know if it’s 50-50. But a good number of writers come on and have the same experience. I just find that for myself. And for me, for someone like yourself, the I mean, it’s a simple equation. I mean, do you want to do the work on the front end or the back end, you don’t seem to mind doing all those 60 versions of the draft. For some reason, I have a hard time, like understanding the full script and going back into it. So, if I get sort of bogged down in a draft, it needs massive rewrites, it feels very difficult. As opposed to when I have the outline, I can sort of see the script. And I’m actually doing a rewrite now. I’ll even go back and I’ll go back to the cards and I’ll paste them out and sort of see it just so I can see the script and start to see on more of a macro level. But I don’t really know if there’s a right answer. And you know, conventional wisdom really holds true, you’re going to end up spending a lot of time on a screenplay, whether it’s doing the outline or whether it’s doing the rewrite.
Todd Bogin
I agree with you. And good luck on the rewriting and stuff. Because I know that can be scary. I agree with you. It’s like what do you want better? I feel like there’s a form of chaos to the version I’ve done, where you’re going through 60 drafts, and you know, all is lost the dark of the night of the screenplay. And I’m like, why am I doing this? And there’s something about it, though, that makes me feel like it’s what keeps me writing because I’m like, I challenged myself. I’m like, I have to prove to myself that this is a good screenplay, and I got to do it. Versus I think your way is, I think your way is the much better way if I could say it, and I’m working on getting there. Because of that aspect of it. I feel like it’s a more organized, calmer, smooth ride. But there’s something about the chaos that’s also kind of fun.
Ashley
Yeah, exactly. The creativity and not feeling like you’re tied down and that sort of stuff. Yeah, yeah.
Todd Bogin
Because it does always change. But I mean, I mean, I know people who will spend I have a friend I was just had dinner with he’s a brilliant writer, he’s been on blacklist a bunch. And he showed me his outline for a script he’s working on. And the depth of this outline, I could not do that. I just I would get lost and not like the writing of it. But I was just brilliant. I was just like, Man, this guy has thought out every little aspect before he even open up the final draft thing. So, it’s like, it’s amazing. But my thing is, like, I really believe in the visual. I mean, that’s me. So, I really will, like I’ll write a quick draft or halfway through and I’ll like, I’ll go to InDesign or I’ll go on Pinterest and start copy pasting on InDesign. And I’ll start building out the characters like style and color swatches and create food that they’re, you know, create meals for them or like playlists for each character. And then I’ll go back to the script as well. I mean, I don’t know if that helps. But it’s helped me something.
Ashley
Yeah. And that’s almost a form of outline, and you’re doing those sort of character descriptions in sort of just a modern digital way. So, okay, so let’s talk about your development process as you’re doing these 60 drafts. Who are the people you’re getting notes from? Do you have some trusted writer friends, actor friends, producer friends, just walk us through that a little bit. How do you go through this this development process?
Todd Bogin
Absolutely. Yeah. So, I have very trusted friends of Frederick is one of them. My wife is one of them. I met her while I was writing loved only rain, hidden exposure. And if you read that script, it’s I’m very lucky that she didn’t leave me after reading it. And, you know, I have some actor friends as well, that I sent it to, I love getting the actors response just to see like, if it’s an actor script, and I always am trying to write for the actor in many ways to attract them, you also try to write for the producer. Yes, I have good like four or five, six people, I try not to send them every draft app, like I try to like, like, Okay, the first draft, I’m going to send a one or two people who I know are like, are always going to be friends with me, because I might need them later on. And they’ll read the second one. But there’s a couple of friends or like I get one time with this script with them. Yeah, so I have I have my go to Barbie Leung, the cinematographer of hidden exposure, who’s also the cinematographer of my next film, she always gives me a great pass. And I also utilize like blind reading, so I’ve paid for a lot of coverage on Fiverr believe it or not, just people I don’t know, I just want someone who doesn’t know me to give me like an honest opinion. Some other websites to have paid for it, but that one I’m usually going for because you can directly write with them. And because a lot of the other ones I’ve noticed they’re very sometimes it feels copy and pasted. But I’ve done Fiverr a lot as well, too. And then when I get towards the end is when I start giving it to people who are not necessarily in the film industry. My brother’s a lawyer and he gave me the last round of notes and love it only raining, he gave some of the best notes. I got He added he gave us a note that we added one or two things and many people have commented on that. I’m just like, you know, so yeah, that’s okay. Spread it out. Like don’t bother your friends too much.
Ashley
Yeah, certainly, you know, there’s no friend that’s good enough to read 60 drafts of something.
Todd Bogin
I spent a lot of money on Fiverr getting a little Hidden Exposure that only ran I’ll say that …
Ashley
Gotcha. How do you approach screenplay structure? You know, they’re sort of the Blake Snyder Syd Field, they have your ACT breaks and your midpoints and your Inciting Incidents and that sort of stuff? What is your approach? And I And I’m curious to especially as someone who doesn’t outline as someone who does a lot of outlining, and I find this the people that are into more outlining generally gravitate more towards the sort of template structures that we see. But what’s your approach to screenplay structure?
Todd Bogin
Yeah, I’m kind of with you. I’m a fan of the template I originally was like, oh, you know, whatever, it doesn’t matter. But for me, I need that structure of the subfield. You know, say the cat also is like, I’ve read all that stuff. And it helps like the beats, I have like a I’ll do like a beat calculator. And I’ll do all that stuff. And my opinions like I need that structure. It’s like, it’s like writing a song, you need the A, the B, and you know, the A, B, and then the C and then A and I feel that with the screenplay, for me, at least, I wish I was at a level where I can just what doesn’t matter, I can do 63. But I’m working out of three acts essentially, with sometimes with an extended fourth, a little added fourth at the end with like, heavy ashes definitely has a small fourth act and so does another one I’m working on that I actually didn’t write on that I’m working on directing next year. Um, yeah, I’m in that basic draft structure. I’m, it’s like a 90-page screenplay. I’m trying to like inciting incident within 10. And by page 2025, we’re getting into our second act. I’m trying to just stick to that.
Ashley
Gotcha, gotcha. Okay. So, once you had a draft that you liked, what were those next steps to actually going out and starting raising the money and actually getting this thing into production?
Todd Bogin
A little different with the next stuff just because I have a little bit more of a team around me, which is great love the only rain hidden exposure. I had nothing around me. So, the one thing I did have was I had a bunch of shorts and one of my shorts, I got through some festivals and I met some people who were interested in giving me not that much money, but a little bit of money for a feature. My step was essentially I took that built the deck and you reach out to agents, essentially an IMDb Pro and trying to get actors to read it and get attached. It was really that I know it sounds like, that’s like doesn’t happen. But I mean, you reach out and ask if they would read it and you got a couple of people to bite.
Ashley
Like Rumer Willis, you’re saying like Rumer Willis was just a cold email to her agent or manager. And then they just sent him the script and you cut a deal.
Todd Bogin
Yeah. And she was the first person to attach to left Hidden Exposure, if she didn’t attach that I don’t know if this movie would have ever been made. So, my pitch was essentially to her was just like, I mean, I didn’t she related to it, thank God. But I felt that character was suited for her in a sense, and I had a friend who suggested her he had he had known he had kind of known her known her agent a little bit and he was like, she would fit this someone one of my friends who read the script. And yeah, and that was essentially. And so, I was able to write saying – Hey, I was, you know, told that this might be good for her. And so, then when that happened, and where you’re going And from there is at least from the indie world where you don’t have too much money. I mean, this movie was like, I’m not allowed to say the budget, but it was very far away from a million put it that way, it was not anywhere near hitting a million. When that happens, and you have it, we had innovative, you have them interested in helping you cast that. So, then I’m now on a phone call with Richard chi. And you know, Liana is reading the script down on the Bravo. And essentially all that was just because one actor was like, this is decent. So yeah, that was what that happened, then what we were able to do. Because of that, I was able to go to people who told me that they’d be interested in financing the first film, if I was able to do that. And we’re able to get a bunch of investors involved and put a little bit of money in. And then once that was the case, I now things should be done a little bit differently as I move forward in my career, and they are, but then once that was the case, I was able to pitch sales agents, one after we were done filming, actually. And then that’s how we were able to get the Coven to help sell the movie.
Ashley
So now, just as you’re going through this process, there’s no… you mentioned Richard Kind as well. These are not actors that you had a prior relationship or anything like that, and none of your other producers or anything … did you hire a casting director to make some of those some initial submissions?
Todd Bogin
No, we had no casting director. So, some of the other producers knew that maybe knew the agent. I think they might have known Richard a little bit. But the other actors were all like fresh. But yeah, I’ve never met Richard in my life. Ironically, he only lives a couple of blocks from me in New York. I didn’t know that until after we shot.
Ashley
You mentioned the sales agent, you got a sale decision on so this is after you’re through production, but before you’re actually completed the film, principal photography is done, but the business so I and I’m on like these Facebook forums in distribution. And I constantly see people ask, well, how do you find a good sales agent? So, I pose that question to you. I mean, as someone who’s been in, you know, indie film and things. I mean, once your film is completed, you start to get emails from people that are like on IMDb, but I don’t know, these are definitely the people you want to deal with. How do you how do you actually find a trustworthy sales agent that’s going to be meaning bring meaningful value to this project.
Todd Bogin
So, I preface this by saying that as I go forward in this, I realized that I literally won the jackpot with my sales agent. So, a lot of this is like blind luck as straight up blind luck. Because I hear horror stories about from some people like you, I’m sure you do, too. I’ve seen I’ve been on some of the same forums and you hear that we all know, we know. naming names, we all know. So, essentially, what I had to do is I had to go on and, and sell the film. And I didn’t know I’ve never sold the film before. I’ve never done a feature before. So, I essentially, I so I edit a lot I edit for you know, so I edited my own little trailer, I built a little website around the movie built like a, the colors in our movie are very important. So, I built like a color theory booklet I built like, whatever, a stills booklet where it’s like 50 pages of just like the movie and stills because you don’t know how many people are going to watch it. And I ended up just reaching out to a bunch of sales agents that I was researching, what I would do is I would go on IMDb Pro, I’d go to like big festivals or whatever. And I would see a movie that maybe was similar, or a movie that like Liana was awesome in or something like that. And I would see who sold it, and I would reach out to their agents and stuff. So that was essentially what I started doing. And we got a few decent offers from some really nice companies. And we got turned down to you know, and that’s going to happen. And I don’t hold anything against that because I you know, it’s like that’s part of the game. When we got the Coven, I was very excited because although luckily Randy’s not a horror film, I watched what they did business sense with Terrifier 2, which made millions and millions of dollars on a very low budget all over the world. They took like this very distinctive horror film was able to sell that. And I knew that they were very new. It was run by to two women and I listened to a couple podcasts with them. And they just sounded so nice and so smart. And so, I wrote him a pitch that was just like straight up business. It wasn’t about my passion towards the film, because my passion is in the film. I think you just have to watch it and no, but it was about the business aspect of the movie. And I was trying to let them know that I would work with them from the business end to make them the most money and make us the most money. And yeah, and that’s what happened and I met with him and we got along super well. So that was how I got my sales agents. Honestly, I really, I’ve met them on IMDb Pro essentially. Now I’m very good friends with them and we’d love to work with them as much as possible. And they’ve been fantastic and taught me a lot. And now I have I do have that I won’t chat about but I have also heard a lot of stories from other friends where it’s like, you know, you get the sales agent, they do the trailer, they do the poster, you pay them a lot of money and then it just goes up somewhere and you don’t see anything. So, I don’t know. My biggest thing is like ask questions to talk to people who’ve worked with them before. I think people are really afraid of doing that in this industry for some reason. But get references and you don’t necessarily have to ask them just, you know, see who they put out and reach out to those directors reach out to those producers and see how it was working with them.
Ashley
Yeah. So that’s excellent advice. And I’m sure people will be like, you’re giving him such a good recommendation. People will be looking him up through your film. You mentioned that you’d been to a bunch of festivals with your shorts. Did you do any festivals with this feature?
Todd Bogin
Yeah. So, there was with our sales process, and with some stuff in our movie, we did not really do a festival run because we were supposed to and there is stuff that I probably shouldn’t get into on the call-in terms of like the people who were supposed to do that. Didn’t really know how it worked out. So, we had to maneuver for a lot of stuff. We were at Berlinale EFM in February, though, and that’s where the movie sold. We were there because of the coven. We didn’t really do a festival run though, we didn’t even really almost attempt to. We sold to the Coven before we even got to that point, which was great. But by the time we sold with them, it was like a weird time in the festival. So yeah, we were at Berlinale EFM. This year, I went out there met everyone. It was great. And that’s where we sold USA and Canada. And so not a full one, that is what my next films are. I’m very determined to do a big festival run. Gotcha,
Ashley
Gotcha. Yeah. So how can people see Hidden Exposure? What’s the release schedule going to be like?
Todd Bogin
Yeah, it’s right now exclusive in the US, Canada on Tubi they bought off exclusive rights for a little bit. They can email me and I can give them a 4k screen or two. If they want a private one. They can. If they’re in Germany, it’s available also. We’re being released in Germany soon. I think theatrical. And also, some stuff coming through with other aspects of other parts of Europe and international will be coming out over the next few months. So right now, US, Canada.
Ashley
Gotcha. And I just like to wrap up the interviews by asking the guests. Is there anything you’ve seen recently that you can recommend to our mostly screenwriting audience, anything on Hulu, Netflix, HBO, that you think is just really, really great and screenwriters could get a lot out of?
Todd Bogin
I think it’s coming to HBO or Hulu soon. I just saw in the movie theater. And I honestly think I haven’t read the screenplay. But just watching the movie. I thought Anatomy of the Fall, the screenwriting and the dialogue, and how the story unfolds just blew me away like I thought it was like one of the best screenplays I’ve seen on screen in so long, and I can’t stop thinking about that movie and going everywhere online. See the breakdowns of the scripts? There is a script online, but it’s mostly in French and I don’t know French, unfortunately. I just think that movie from this year, was just beautiful and brilliant.
Ashley
That’s a great recommendation. I have not have not seen that yet. What’s the best way for people to keep up with what you’re doing? Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, anything? You’re comfortable sharing, I’ll roundup for show notes.
Todd Bogin
For sure. I’m not the biggest social media guy actually. But I have a, I have a private Instagram, you can hit me up on under my name. And then there’s like a water voices productions, which is my production company, Instagram, hit me up, I need to be more active on that. And watervoicesproductions.com. Just like that. That’s me just like, hit me up on there, too. I update that with what’s going on. Next year, I am directing a horror film that I didn’t write. That’s beautiful, brilliant script that I can’t wait to talk about soon. And Heavy Ashes, which I co-wrote with my friend, Frederick, that we’re going into production sometime next year as well, too, which is more of a thriller. So yeah. I’ll try and update all that stuff there too.
Ashley
Perfect. Well, Todd, I really appreciate you coming on and talking with me today. Yeah, good luck with all your future projects. And I’d love to follow your career. So, you’re always welcome back when you get some of these other projects done.
Todd Bogin
Yeah. And thank you for everything you do for the community and screenwriters. I literally have learned so much from your podcast and honored to have you chat back with me.
Ashley
Thank you. I really appreciate that. Thank you. You take it easy.
Todd Bogin
Thank you, you too. Bye.
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