This is a transcript of SYS 466 – The Do’s and Don’t of A TV Writers’ Room With Katie White .
Welcome to Episode 466 of Selling Your Screenplay Podcast. I’m Ashley Scott Meyers, screenwriter and blogger over at sellingyourscreenplay.com. Today I am interviewing writer director Katie White, she is a real smart filmmaker, she was able to get onto NCIS as a writer’s assistant, and then work her way up and got to write two episodes of the show. But she’s really an indie writer, director. So now she’s trying to make some indie films and get those produced. So, we’ll talk about her career, how she got on to NCIS. And now how she’s trying to get these indie films going. So, stay tuned for that interview.
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So, a quick few words about what I’ve been working on. By the time this episode airs, we should have the contest, The Screenplay Contest and the film festival up and ready to accept submissions, you can find the screenplay contest on our website at www.sellingyourscreenplay.com/contest. And you can find the film festival at www.sellingyourscreenplay.com/festival. And that festival link will just take you to our page on the Film Freeway page, which is where you’ll actually make the submission. Once again, if you have a screenplay that you think could be produced on a low budget, definitely enter the contest, we’ve had some good success with our winning screenplays. Hopefully, you’ve heard some of those podcast interviews from some of our winners and runner up. And if you have a low budget, film or short or feature, I definitely like to take a look at that through the festival. I’m doing something a little different this year with the festival, I’m really trying to figure out a way of giving the most value to filmmakers and kind of solve some of the frustrations that I had with film festivals. I’m trying to sort of save those. So, what I’m going to do this year is I’m going to refund 100% of the entry fee to all the films that we do not accept. So, if your film doesn’t get accepted, we will issue 100% refund for the entry fee, really trying to take a lot of the risk away from the filmmakers. Obviously, you still have to pay the entry fee if you get accepted. But we’re going to screen all the films every film that gets into the festival, we’re definitely going to screen at a live in person event here in Los Angeles. And if we decide your film, for whatever reason is not right for the festival, we’ll give you a full refund on the submission fee. So, there’s really not a lot of risk to the filmmakers. So anyways, that’s what we’re doing it again, you can check out the contest sellingyourscreenplay.com/contest. Or you can check out the film festival at sellingyourscreenplay.com/festival.
I’m still working on the NFT project for The Rideshare Killer. I’ve actually got my first podcast interview where I’m being interviewed as a guest on an NFT podcast. It’s my first one doing within the crypto space. And that’s right now that’s my basically my strategy. I’m just building lists of NFT and crypto blogs and podcasts. And then I’m emailing those folks and just see kind of pitching my project and see if they might want to have me on as a guest. So far, I’ve got one yes, I’ve probably sent maybe 55 emails. So far, I’ve got a list I was able to buy a list will see the quality of a for 100 bucks, I was able to buy this list of like 1500 email addresses of NFT and crypto products, I’ve got to go through that make sure it’s actually going to work. But I’ll start sending out that. And that’s really, as I said, my main strategy for at least the first strategy is just going to be trying to hit the crypto community in their blogs, podcasts and see and I’m sort of excited to see, obviously, this is the film community. So, I’m excited to see what they think of my project, but the crypto folks will have a very different view of it. So again, I’m sort of excited to see how the crypto community views what I’ve done with The Rideshare Killer in terms of my NFT project. Anyway, wish me luck. But those are some of the things that I’ve been working on over the last couple of weeks. Now, let’s get into the main segment. Today, I’m interviewing writer director Katie White. Here is the interview.
Ashley
Welcome Katie to the Selling Your Screenplay Podcast. I really appreciate you coming on the show with me today.
Katie White
Thank you so much for having me.
Ashley
So, to start out, maybe can tell us a little bit about your background where you grew up, and how did you get interested in the entertainment business?
Katie White
I grew up in New Jersey and I just kind of always wanted to write. I think I wrote a screenplay in middle school. I wrote a play that I then forced people to perform for me and that was kind of my shtick as a little kid. And then I went to college for a hot second and it wasn’t for me and at the time, the New York Film Academy had just opened and I believe it wasn’t an accredited university yet. It was just kind of a building in New York with a shit ton of equipment. And I found my way there and kind of decided this was the industry for me.
Ashley
Okay, so talk about that New York Film Academy. I’m not someone that went to film school. When I ask people that come on the podcast, it’s always kind of a mixed bag. Some people are real proponents. Yeah, it was a great experience. Some people look, I was a little expensive. What’s your take on film school in general, and then specifically this one?
Katie White
Well, it was interesting was, when I went there, we were very close to Tisch, which you know, is NYU is fancy, like, it looked like we were like, on the wrong side of the tracks compared to them. When we went to school there because A) you weren’t getting anything out like you weren’t getting a degree out of it when I went there. So, you were just getting your experience. But also, like, we didn’t study, we studied film, but we didn’t study it to the degree you would add, you know, Tish. So within, I think like the first week of being there, we already had cameras in our hands, and we’re learning how to operate. They were teaching you how to work in the industry, how to work the equipment, and how to make stuff. Whereas everybody from the other schools were going well, our first year or second year was learning about like, 1920s film and…
Ashley
French New Wave. Yeah, gotcha.
Katie White
It’s hard, because I’ll never forget, I took a short film to a film festival. And the night before all these directors were sitting together, and they were all just waxing poetic about, you know, well, my biggest influence was so and so from this era, and every name was going straight over my head. And I was like, I can’t play that game. I was like, but I can tell you that we shot mine that’s in the same world as yours in 48 hours for under $1,000. And we’re in the same film festival you are, because we had just a different type of skill sets. We couldn’t talk about the history of film, but we could bang one out and know what worked and know what didn’t and kind of play every role because that’s what we were taught. But now I have to say now, the Film Academy, the New York Film Academy has expanded like, so amazing, like, now you can get the full history education, you can do so much more than was available. When I went, I believe I was in like the first generation of it. But still, it was I loved that, we showed up and it was just a bunch of really creative people taught how to use equipment. And given this free, like they would have subjects and you know, different type styles that we had to do. But it was like the freedom to just go and just make shit and to be there 24 hours a day to edit in this dark cave. And it was just this feeling of being in like, just the wild of creativity. And it was really awesome. So, I hope that it still has that kind of a vibe nowadays. It’s been probably, God, at least 25 years. Maybe a little bit longer.
Ashley
Gotcha. Okay, so then once you were done with that, it sounds like you had a bunch of films, at least under your belt. What was your next step to actually turning this into a career?
Katie White
Well, what’s funny was, that was one of the spots that I don’t think at the time, they had the capacity to help you with like that. I actually don’t think any school does that correctly. Even High School, you leave it and they’re like, good luck. And you’re like, Wait, what the hell happens next? Like, I don’t think anybody really prepares you for the next step the way that they could. And I was dealing with a couple of different family issues. So, I kind of went home and I worked on a few independent films that were shooting in New Jersey or Philadelphia and kind of did any job people would hire me for, but I couldn’t figure out how to get from where I was to LA to do what I wanted to do. I had no I’d like absolutely no concept how to do that. And I believe it took me like eight years before I was like, okay, I just have to go and do it. And because I drove out here when we were in the writer strike. So, when I drove out, I was like, I’m going to break in, like, got out here. And they were like, nobody’s breaking anything the writer strike, and I was like, Oh, shit. So yeah, I definitely did not have a direct pathway. And that’s the one thing is every once in a while, I’ll meet somebody who goes like, well, and alumni from my school helped me get this and I’m like, Ah, shit. That’s why the big universities, you know, are useful. And even now, like, I know, the Film Academy has a much bigger wealth of outlets for people. But when I was there, it was, you know, that wasn’t a thing yet. So, yeah, I came out here and was like, I’m going to make my film career. It’s going to happen right away. And I think it was a decade before I worked in television.
Ashley
Okay, so let’s talk about that. I love to ask these questions, because I know there’s people listening to this podcast that would love to make this transition. Obviously, it sounds like you came out in 2008. That was the writer strike around that time. So just give us some advice like how much money did you save? Who did you know? How did you actually make that transition? Are there some locations in LA? When I came out here it was before that and the advice I got was that Studio City North Hollywood area was centrally located. It was decently priced. It’s in the valley, but give us that same sort of thing. What did you do? How much money you saved? How did you just logistically make that transition? What did you tell your family? Hey, I’m going to Hollywood to be a screenwriter, you know, wish me luck. What do you tell? Tell people? How do you kind of get past all of those hurdles?
Katie White
Well, that’s really funny because I was told the same thing, you go to the valley. And I literally went there and like, planted myself down. I was there for 12 years before I left it. And like, there’s more to LA like you can see other places do. But I’m extremely lucky that my parents were helpful financially, although my father was not excited. Like he did not like this decision. And I think they thought I would be back in like an hour, which for the first couple of years my keys were my hand a lot of being like, I’m going to go like when I first moved out here, there was this really weird, like scam job going on where movers would offer you a rate. And then once they started travelling, they’d say, well, we went to a Weigh Station, it was too heavy, you know, it was $1,000 more and things of that nature. So, when I got out here, they pulled that scam on me. And I had no money like, I had just enough to get me through like a year of being in LA and I knew $1,000 out of that was just already in a downhill spiral. And I’ll never forget, all I had was my dog and when I could fit in my car, and I was in this rat infested apartment in Sherman Oaks. And I was sitting there and I was like, what did I do? I have no furniture, I was sitting in a target bathmat that I bought, and my sister being wonderful sent me like, I would say probably two to three weeks’ worth of food stuff. You could freeze all this stuff. But I was too scared to tell my family, a) I think I fucked up, and b) I have nothing; I have no furniture. And then I was like, I don’t even have a refrigerator because I didn’t realize that in California. That’s a thing where like you bring your own refrigerator to an apartment in Philadelphia. That’s not it comes with the place. So, she sent me all this food. And I remember laying on the on a bathmat eating it with my fingers because I didn’t even have utensils. And finally, like a week later, I think it was my dad was like; are you actually okay, because we don’t think you are we think you’re pretending you are. And I was like, yeah, I’m pretending and he was like what’s happening. And thankfully, he was like, I will get your furniture to you. I will pay them like, you know, we’ll get you past that. And he was like, or turn around and come home. And I won’t pretend it wasn’t one of the most inviting things I’ve ever heard was turn around and come home. And I think for the first couple years it that was a really inviting thing because LA is a very different city. Once you get submerged in it. It’s very easy to be home. But I’m from the East Coast. So, people are nosy. They’re in your business and LA, it can feel very lonely because nobody’s going to go out of their way to be in your business, which is great. But when you’re used to that you feel very just isolated. So, I think it was a really terrifying time. And I took every job under the sun that I could find. And I was a nanny, I was selling sex toys. I was managing places I had no right to be managing. Like I was just kind of doing anything, anywhere. And that’s another thing too is like there’s nothing worse than calling your family and saying like; Hey, I got a job managing a sex store. And they were like, what’s there and they were like, please come home and then I got fired from that job. And then that’s even worse. My dad was like, you got fired from selling porn. I was like I did I got fired from selling porn. So, you know, you have to expect some lows, but also it gives you a ton to write about.
Ashley
Yeah, no kidding. No kidding. Okay, so take us through you’re working these jobs to get through. What were you doing on the writing front? You were writing a bunch of specs, you were sending them out? You were going to networking events? What were you doing during those first few years?
Katie White
I couldn’t find my way, I still can’t find my way into like network. But now because of Twitter, I can find my way into networking events where it’s like at a bar, you know where there’s having a meet up, but God like 15 years ago, there wasn’t a Twitter where you could find these things. I had no idea how to get into a networking event if like my life depended on it. What I knew was, I’m assure it’s still a website. There was like mandy.com was a website back then that people use for jobs. But there was also a couple that told you what film festivals and things of that and like screenplay festivals. So, I knew I could spend a certain amount of money to send my scripts out there. So that was kind of my thing was. I would just send things out and enter things and see how they do and then anything I got into I went to and I kind of made a meal out of that. And then I think it was probably 10 or 11 years ago that I shot my first short film. And I was and that was a great experience for me because we took that to probably like six or seven small film festivals, but they were film festivals. This is a weird tangent, but I like to tell anybody making a short film and people think I’m an asshole for this but I’m like; Hey, if you’re writing a Sundance short film, more power to you, but also maybe know what you have, and look at the lower-level film festivals because you’re going to meet your kind of like your graduating class, like you’re going to meet your equals. And the best thing I ever did was fine my equals and start working together, and start kind of like so at this point. Now, all of my friends who 10 years ago, we’re entering the same festivals I’m entering, now one of them sold her first TV show, and one of them is an award-winning editor. And it’s like, you got to find your graduating class and kind of move up with them. Because it’s the easiest way to have shoulders to lean on and to have people to work with.
Ashley
Yeah, for sure. So, let’s talk about those shorts just quickly. How did you put those together? You had enough experience just through this film school that you knew how to direct you knew sort of the logistics of stuff, how did you get a crew? How did you get a budget to get these done?
Katie White
It was all friends. And my first one, my first short film we made, including all of the entry fees, to festivals and everything, we made it for $1,000, which is, I’m still shocked that we were able to pull that off. And it was just the fact that it was really simple and sweet, and would take two days to shoot. And a friend of mine at the time was renting a house, and she wanted to be in it. And it was kind of, okay, so you’ll star in this and we’ll utilize your house. And we’ll just make this room this. And then a friend of mines husband has been like a grip for 20 some years. And he was like, well, if you wait until I’m on hiatus, I’ll work for two days. He’s like, oh, do that. And then he was like an Alaska buddy from work. If he’ll do it for today, you know, it was one of those things were you kind of get your group of people who go like; Oh, I can give you two days of my life, you know, and we kept it we were really good about like, we weren’t going to do any crazy hours, we’re going to feed people well, and just make it so that nobody… The worst is if you go to a short film shooting, and it’s a bad situation, and you’re like near for free, like I’m here as a favor, or I’m here for like the smallest amount of money and you hand me cold pizza like, so like, we made sure to be really to shoot something that would be easy to shoot logistically. And that just really was a character driven story. And we had such a great time doing it that everybody was so happy, not only with the product, but with just the experience that after that it was like; hey, next time you’re working on something, let me know. So, it really was just appreciating everybody there that helped me continue to make things like that, because we made it a pleasant environment. And like, and I think it was the biggest lesson too, that I brought into going into a writers’ room is like, the truth is, you’re just stuck in a room with people, you’re stuck on set with people for a very long time. And if you’re tough to work with or if you have an ego, or if you just don’t get along well with people or can’t try to get along well with people nobody’s going to want you know, so yeah.
Ashley
So, at this point, as you’re doing your short, what is the direction of your career you’re trying to go and you want to do feature? Do you want to be a writer director of features? Or were you starting to sort of gravitate towards TV, where you’re writing spec TV episodes? And we’re sort of gearing up because I’m going to the next question, of course, is how did you become your writer’s assistant and ultimately write those two scripts on NCIS? But just where are you just in this point, when you do you’re short? Where are you in your career, writing wise?
Katie White
What’s interesting is when I went to film school, TV was dead, like TV was the place that like no celebrity wanted to have a TV show. So, the whole thing was like, you have to write features, you have to write features. And that came out here as it was transitioning to like, that’s a cool feature. But like, I’m really into TV now. And I was like, shit. So, I came out here with a wealth of features. And that was kind of the direction I was going to go in. And I had a feature that we, gosh, we had, you know, come together and fall apart, probably at this point, like 15 times in the last decade. And we even to the point where one of the producers that I’ve worked with for eight or nine years on it suddenly, like tragically passed away. And we’ve had all of these really gigantic hurdles with it, where the other producer and I just a few months ago, kind of reconvened and said, like, we’re going to do this. I could be 85 and we get this off the ground. Like, I have a photo behind me that is actually of the day that Jean Smart, told me she would be in it, which was wonderful. And it was like the highlight of my life. And then we immediately found out one of the investors was bullshit, had no money, and suddenly, everything fell apart again. So, it’s like, we’ve done all the highs and lows of every aspect of this film. And I still am a huge proponent of indie film. And I think the greatest realization I had though, was that my heart isn’t an indie film. And to ever get one off the ground. I need to be working in some other aspect of either the industry or something because you’re never going to eat well, and I like to eat. So yeah.
Ashley
Gotcha. So then let’s talk about then your career with NCIS. Just talk about that. How did you then make the transition? How did you get that first job as writer? Was that the first job with NCIS?
Katie White
It was my first job, like, I’ve worked as a PA on tons of different things, but nothing big enough to kind of launch me into anything. And also, I was never a writer’s PA. And that’s always hard because then you know, people go, you can make that shift from like production PA to… I’ve never figured out how to do it. I know people that have but it was not my skill set. So, I always say that I got my job, which the showrunner has disagreed with me on this, but I say I got the job from half nepotism, half talent, because he was asked by a family member who knew him through something else, if he would have lunch with me and talk to me about the industry. And at the time, they weren’t hiring for anything. But I had a script that had been doing really well. And I kind of knew I had an ace up my sleeve. And he asked if he could read. He said; you know, I’ll give you notes on something. And it was also just a really great lunch. He’d been in the industry, his, you know, whole career. And he was in like late 60s. And it was just a very interesting lunch of somebody telling me the world of their story. And then I kind of knew I had an ace up my sleeve with the script. And when I sent it to him, he was like, okay, like, he’s like, we don’t have a staff position. But I can offer you this writer’s assistant position if you are willing to do that. And I didn’t know even what a writer’s assistant really was at the time. And I was like, okay, I mean, it’s my first foot in, I’m going to take it and that was how I got in.
Ashley
Yeah, so let’s take a step back and talk about that. What does a writer’s assistant do? What is that position actually entail?
Katie White
I just think the assistant parts not what you are an assistant, but I always think of an assistant as the person, you know, scheduling your calls and your meetings and stuff. And a writer’s assistant is you’re in the room, and you’re taking all the notes. And you’re making sure that everything that’s said in that room is known to everybody. And it’s put in a logical order, because you’re in a room of a lot of creative people, sometimes speaking at the same time, all trying to break episodes and break characters and figure out where the show’s going to go. I think the hardest thing about the … not that it should be a career, it should be a stepping stone, but the career of a writer’s assistant, as it completely depends on the show and on the room. You know, I worked on NCIS, which is right now on their 20th season, that is a well-oiled machine, like that is completely different than if I had worked in a room that was breaking up pilot episode, where every character is brand new, and you’re creating these worlds and this, like on NCIS some of the writers had been there before. They were so seasoned that it was like; Hey, you’re episode number four. And they’re like, cool, gotcha, I’ll come back when I have something. And like they were given that freedom for good reason, because they track records that prove they could do that. So, then they would come back in with a with an outline, or like with an idea like, you know, at least like a broken down concept. Whereas I have friends who’ve been writer’s assistants on brand new shows. And their experience was just so different. Because they’d spend days creating a character or creating, you know, what will this world look like? What will the house look like, but we had, I could go downstairs to the set and see what everything looked like. So, it was a much so it really is dependent on who you work for and what the vibe is of the room, some rooms as a writer’s assistant, you don’t say anything, you sit there quietly, and you learn in some rooms, they want you to speak up, and they want your opinion. So, it really is bizarrely different on every show. But it is a stepping stone to being a staff writer.
Ashley
So how many writers are in this writer’s room? Correct me if I’m wrong, NCIS it’s an hour long. Is there 22 episodes a season still? So that’s a lot of actual content? How many writers are there and how many assistants are covering or is it just one assistant per room?
Katie White
Well, there were two when I was there. But what they did was kind of interesting, which a lot of people are doing now is there was no writer’s PA. So, there were two writer’s assistants and then we swapped off every other episode, I would do the PA work and she would do the writer systems work. And then at one point, we just gotten such a mole that we were both doing it all together because she and I, I lucked out that she became a we met and we were like, Oh, we’re basically best friends now. So, we lucked out with personalities that we just got along great. So, we kind of just combined, we figured out what everybody’s best skill sets are because like I am as a writer’s assistant, the scariest thing for me is I am neurodivergent and I have a disability where I’m extremely dyslexic. So, the first time they were like; Well, can you go right on the board? I was like, No. Like you don’t want me to because you’re not going to have any idea what I’m writing like the words will make sense. So, I was very lucky that she was like, I will gladly write on the board because I don’t like doing this side of the job. And I was like, well, I’ll do that you do that. So very lucky because that was also a hill to climb was saying like, Hi, I’m a writer’s assistant. And one of the main aspects of this job is reading and writing. And I’m disabled and struggle with that.
Ashley
Gotcha. Yeah. So, how many writers are on something like NCIS?
Katie White
I believe there were like, oh, nine, maybe? Trying to count offices. I think like eight or nine, but there was so many episodes and something like that. Probably more like eight. But yeah, and then there were. But I know, you know, nowadays with the much smaller rooms, I think, because there’s just shorter episode runs. And that’s kind of a direction TD has gone in. I don’t think there’s ever there’s also to have 22 to 24 episodes a season is, you know, wild these days. I mean, I wish more chose had that. But it’s like, it’s a Good Dinosaur.
Ashley
Yeah. So, just break down the hierarchy from so there’s the showrunner at the top. There’s the writer’s assistant at the bottom. What in the writer’s room, what is the hierarchy of titles, there’s a staff writer and executive producer, and this just sort of break down sort of that hierarchy a little bit.
Katie White
The problem is, I probably won’t do it correctly. There’s above a writer’s assistant, as a staff writer, and then it story editor. And then from there on, it gets to be murky with me, because there’s like, producer, co-producer, Executive Producer, but it’s I don’t know if Co-producer happens before producer, I don’t know, I know there’s like a there’s something in between those two, it’s a murky world in that.
Ashley
And what is the week look like for you guys? Do you show up on Monday, and you get in a room and you start pitching around ideas for the episodes, how many hours are spent in this writer’s room as a group, and then the writers I assume they get time to go off and actually write their episodes, what are you guys doing as the assistants during that time?
Katie White
So, and I can only speak to NCIS, which was probably working on it was one of the greatest experiences just to see, just to watch, like I said before, it’s a well-oiled machine. But we would start in June, and try to have probably five episodes, or four episodes, written, or at least, you know, a shell that written or an outline written before we started production, because that was the other thing is, we shot every eight days, they shot a new Episode kind of throughout the season. So, in the beginning, we have kind of, you know, a wealth of like, the first five done hopefully. And then once we start shooting, it’s you start to get like, by the end of it, you’re rewriting as you’re like going to set kind of and but it was fascinating, because prior to COVID, we worked right above this stages, so I could go downstairs and watch them film things I could, you know, it was a really wonderful environment, if you’re like me, where I really love to direct and like I love being on set, and I love that environment. So, it was really lovely to be to experience that. But also to watch these people who have done this for some of them have been there since, like NCIS is technically a Jag spin off. And there’s crew members who have been there since Jag which is just shocking to me. So as one of my favorite aspects of it was everybody thought I was super young, which I was one of the oldest writers assistants that I’ve ever met. At, I got the job at 36 and I left it weeks before my 40th birthday. But everybody on set was like 60 something so they all thought I was this young whippersnapper, which I always thought was hilarious. Our writers room really just depended on who was doing what, you know, some writers needed an audience to kind of go through all their thoughts process with, some writers would be like, just leave me alone, let me go do this. And I think because of the longevity of the show and how long everybody had been there, they really had a freedom to be like, this is how I work best. Let’s do it this way for my episode. And then somebody else would say, well, I need you guys. But they tended to do little mini rooms to where somebody would go like I pulled two or three people in just bounce something for the scene off of them. Which I do believe from my experience kind of does work better. Because when you get too many cooks in the kitchen. It’s just… it’s interesting. And the other funny thing is it’s very easy to derail 10 people, you know, mostly when it’s like 11:30 and lunchtimes coming off and all it takes is one person to go like; oh, do you guys see that thing that came up? And it’s like, no, no, no, no, guys, get back, get back to what you’re talking about, you know, like get back on track. So, I think that’s just kind of how it worked there. When they weren’t… I was lucky at NCIS because the note taking was not some writers needed more than others, but most writers didn’t need copious hours of my time. So, I wrote a lot. I wrote a ton of stuff while I was there and just kind of, you know, worked that way.
Ashley
Okay, so now the 64-million-dollar question, how do you make that transition from writer assistant to actually getting on and writing some of these episodes? And you know, in the context of, you know, not being annoying, obviously everybody knows that the writer’s assistants are there because they want to be writers. So how do you do it in a non-annoying, non-pushy way, but still start to let them know, hey, I want to write an episode?
Katie White
Well, a couple things. I’ve yet to make the leap from writer’s assistant to staff writer, I’ve never been staffed, I got to freelance episodes, I will say that I was given, I think my first season there I was given some of the worst advice I’ve ever been given, which I like to share with people because it was, I was with a new management company, I had two managers who really were going to hit the ground running. And I was extremely excited. And they said; We would like you to write a spec episode of the show. I said, okay, and they said, Write it of the show. And then kind of, you know, you know, one of these, there were two show runners at the time, they said, you know, one of the show runners, like, just get his notes on it. And their theory was, then they could go to other procedural TV shows and say; Hey, she’s the writer’s assistant. Here’s a sample of her writing in the same vein as what you do, like, would you consider staffing her? And at the time, in that mindset, I was like, this is a good idea. But once I saw the reaction, reality kind of hit of like, oh, that is something you never do. Like you never write an episode of the show that you’re on, and just ask people to let you know if you hit the mark or not. That was a very humbling moment in my life.
Ashley
And why not? Why don’t you do that?
Katie White
Because there’s a lot of egos in a room. And I think the description I was given was like that I looked like and I looked like an asshole, I looked like somebody who thought I was bigger than what I was. And I looked like I was expecting, it just was it was presumptuous. And the one thing you don’t want to be in as a writer’s assistant, as presumptuous, anything, it’s very weird. It’s a role that I struggled with, because mostly at the age I got it, I was kind of past, pledging a sorority, you know, I was past the age where I was like, I’m willing to, like, I was still willing to pay my dues. But when you’re 20, you’re willing to pay much different dues than when you’re 36-37. You know, it’s they’re completely different levels of what you’re willing to do. And I feel like it is a job where, for so many generations, the expectations of it have been that kind of, you know, whenever the show needs you, you’re there no matter what time or day. And I feel like I was lucky on NCIS because I’ve heard stories from other people where I go, like, I would have gone home at midnight, like, I wouldn’t have done that till 2am. So, like, I hear these stories, and like, I wouldn’t survive that way. But it is also a room of there’s a lot of egos and you come in with an ego yourself. And it’s tough to navigate it. And it’s funny, because I told a group of writers that the other day, and when I told when I was telling the story of like, so I wrote a spec and I went to the upper-level writers and ask them to read it. The color draining from people’s faces, just because they know that if you hit the one writer who’s got an ego problem and thinks that they’re kind of a god, you’re screwed, like you just blacklisted yourself from anything they ever did. So, it’s just, it’s a complicated world of… It’s tough. It’s a job where when you get into the WGA, they tell you something, and I’m paraphrasing, but it’s like; you have a better chance of getting drafted to Major League Baseball than you do of getting into the WGA, something ridiculous like that, where you go, oh, shit, like, this is something people want so badly. You’re you got this. That’s awesome. Now, like what the hell are you going to do with it? And I feel like sometimes that doesn’t create a very inviting environment. And other times it does. But it was looked at as a very cocky move on my part. And I can see that.
Ashley
Yeah. And so, what is the right move to write a spec of a similar show, but not the same show? Or to write maybe up a pilot episode for a show that similar but not the same show? What is the answer?
Katie White
The answer when it comes to being staffed on a different show?
Ashley
Well, no, just from your managers perspective, I mean, I understand what your managers, they were trying to launch your career, and they thought this was a viable thing. So, what is that advice now to someone else in your position, what should they do?
Katie White
You need to be writing either spec of another show or an original pilot, and then when people have downtime at work, everybody’s going to know that you’re a writer. Everybody knows you want to be a staff writer, because a staff writer will make you will get you into WGA, which is just it’s health insurance. It’s a different level of life. And granted now, I think the year I began as a writer’s assistant was the first year that there was what’s 871 a union that covers writers assistance, which is been life changing for that experience. But the WGA is the goal, because it’s protection, it’s other opportunities and whatnot. So, nobody ever thinks that you don’t want to write an episode. So, you don’t have to worry about people assuming that you don’t, or thinking that you don’t. They know it’s actually all you think about all day long. So, you hope for moments where they say like, where you can chime in, you hope from moments were there. And there’s always somebody in the room who will see that in you and who will take the, you know, there’s always that good writer who looks over and goes like, ‘hey, what would you do’ kind of a thing, and you can tell that they’re doing it because somebody wants to do that for them. And they got to have a voice, which is so interesting and important in the room is to realize that, you know, everybody has an opinion and a voice and like, even the writers, assistant, or PA could have, you know, a great idea. And why not ask it. So, I think that was a good spot to start. But I also when I started there, I was honest about how like, you know, I was a writer, and I was writing things. And that was important. And the showrunner said basically right off the bat, like we can’t offer you an episode this season. But hopefully next season, we can like let’s see how it goes. And it kind of just that was how it worked, which because I think they knew that. And I do think my I feel like my age might have helped in that direction, just because they knew that if I wasn’t straight out of college, I wasn’t 20. And I didn’t have 10 years to pay my dues on something I had, you know, I was pretty much ready to go.
Ashley
And so that’s ultimately how it happened. Then the second year, they said we have an episode and we’ll assign it to you?
Katie White
Yeah, the second year. And I believe I just gotten in the semifinals of the nickel for like the second time. So, things like that helps. I was always doing that on the outside, too. I was always entering festivals. And my short film had another short film had gone to festivals and stuff and that it’s very easy for them. People come in and go, oh my god, congratulations. And somebody else is like, what are they congratulating you for? And you’re like, oh, I got into this festival and it puts people go, okay, this person’s working. Because the other thing that you have to think of is like, people really love to be like, oh, you know, we discovered that person. That’s people. That’s Hollywood’s favorite sentences. Like, oh, you know, I gave that person that first break. They love that. So, if they know you’re busting your ass, you’re applying to things, you’re entering festivals, and you’re doing well, outside, if they if you get a new manager, you make sure that somebody there knows like, oh, I’m having great, I got a new manager today. And people go oh, shit, like, that manager wants to work with this person. What do we have in our hands? So, I think that I’d had you know, the nickel was a big one. I think I was in like the top 50 or 100 of the nickel or some of that year. I think it was 50 that year. And it was just one of those things where they were like, oh shit, like, and then one of the showrunners said, Can I read your nickel script? And that went over really well. So, I think it’s, you know, letting them know that you are, even as their assistant, you’re still working, you’re still a writer first. This is just your paycheck, I think is important because then they realize that they might be sitting on the talent they don’t really know about.
Ashley
So how does that work? Okay, so they’ve decided, okay, we’re going to let the assistant write one episode. Do they give you a premise? Do they say go come up with some premises and come and pitch those? How is it actually come about?
Katie White
I mean, it completely depends on the show. But for NCIS it’s a procedural, so we aren’t following, you know, the same storylines every episode, which is, so it gives you more freedom in a way, but also it’s a little bit. I would say like for me, I realized that I would probably have been more comfortable on a show that was serialized, where they would say like this is the trajectory of these three characters, because then it’s kind of a little bit more of a of a map. Whereas with procedural, something, I had to learn to be comfortable with this kind of the freedom of saying like, okay, here are our main characters, but there’s this big crime that’s the whole episode. What’s that? And how do you make that these characters fit into that? And how do you give everybody their own voice in that? And I believe my first episode, they had us come up, because the other writer’s assistant got one as well. And I believe they had us come up with like three different ideas, and kind of have just a loose idea of what the episode would be like, we had to know, kind of the crime and I believe they call it the arena, do you have an arena for this, which for some reason, that word fucked with my head so badly, I never knew what they were talking about. But I think that we did that we kind of have like three ideas. And they told us the one that worked the best. And then, you know, we had to kind of come up with a board for ourselves, and then they would send in different groups of writers to kind of go through a board and say like it well, the worst is when somebody would go, well, your second beat, like, all they would do is ABC and D and you’re like, well, there goes the episode. You know, somebody would pull that little thread and the whole thing would unravel, but it was great because then you get to rebuild it with other people. And some days you left work feeling like you were on top of the world. And other days you left work being like, I’m a hack, I’m an idiot. But the best part of working on a TV show is you see people with like, 5 more, 10 more years of experience in you, leaving some days thinking they’re brilliant and someday thinking they’re an idiot and a hack. And you’re like, oh, this is just being a writer.
Ashley
Gotcha, gotcha. Yeah, so you mentioned a little bit there’s, you’re getting the other writers in there to pin holes on it. But just in general, I’m curious, what is the development of one of these scripts look like? Do you guys read it? Did you have table reads with NCIS, you’re still doing right? And then even a step back on that? Do you do like table reads with just the writers and give notes that? Or is it more the showrunners sort of managing all of the scripts, and sometimes you do, if he thinks the script needs a polish, you do a polish, you know, you do some of this stuff?
Katie White
It depends. My first episode was with two show runners, and then one retired. So, my first and second episode were run really differently. Whereas my first one felt very collaborative. And there were a lot of times that people coming in and sitting down and going through my board with me, and really making sure that I had this, you know that this worked. And then there’s so many different steps like you go from you have a board and then once your boards approved, then you write a one pager, then your one pager has to be approved by the showrunners. And then that goes to the network, because you also have a bigger boss and the show runners and the network has to prove that and then you go to your outline, and then your outline, you know, you send that out and the other writers give you notes on that. And then the showrunners give you notes on that. And then you redo that, and then that outline goes to the network, and then the network gives you notes on that. So, it’s a lot of like, every time you go like, Okay, this is working like this is good, somebody will go, I don’t know about this, like I’m not and you’re like shit, and it’s a lot of these like ebbs and flows of just like realizing how much more work you had to do, I think. And one of the best things my first episode was so personal to me. And like not the story, just that it was my first episode of TD. And one of the greatest notes I got was, somebody very early on was like, this is a great idea. You did a great job. If you’re working for HBO, like what are you doing? And I was like, what? They’re like you’re on it like, you’re in a CBS show, you’re at this time, and it was like, oh, like this, when you’re on a TV show is not ‘Let me shine’. It’s ‘Let me figure out how to make an episode of this show’. And I think, because I was kind of, I had an idea, I got greenlit, and then I kind of had the freedom to go write it. A lot of it on my own, I came back and I realized that on my own, I’d gone off topic, I’d gone off to off tone more. It was not easy, it was an easy fix when it came down to it. But it was a very great lesson to learn that like, sometimes because there wasn’t like barriers that we had, you know, so that we had so much freedom, that sometimes too much freedom when you’re not, you know, schooled in that world enough is too much for my think, you know?
Ashley
Yeah, I’m curious. You know, there’s sort of a general perception that the development executive the network executives give really lame notes. So, you know, they’re just pushing these down, versus you may be a showrunner, another writer, they give you more writery type notes, but how did you find that, the difference in the notes? And were the executive notes, sort of what we would expect more logistical stuff, just compare them a little bit. What was your impression of these things?
Katie White
I think it was interesting. So, I think is really to each their own, like there were people were, I would, because a lot like, you know, the other writers give you a heads up to they’ll go like, oh, listen, like so and so’s going to give you notes, don’t freak out. They might seem harsh. And then I would get those notes. And I tend to like when people are just blunt. So, I get those notes and be like, oh, that’s so useful that you were just like, that’s not working. This is weird. Whereas other people will get that and feel like I just think it was completely dependent on the writer because I you know, there were people in the network that people were like, oh, I don’t know, like, they’re not going to they’re going to kind of give you lofty notes. And I was like, well, that note was great. Or there were people that everybody was like, this person notes will be life changing. And I was like, I didn’t get it. So, like, I feel like sometimes it was just the person because also was interesting to do it at the same time as my friend and the other writers assistant, we were kind of doing it within the same three-month period of time. So, it was so funny to see how each of us had a different preference of who to go to for notes, or who to go to when something wasn’t working. You know, whose brain to pick. We had different people because we were such different personalities. So, I really think it’s, you know, like every once in a while you would get a note from an exec that it’s kind of just like a sound effect where it’s like; this scene… Mmm-hmm. And then you just freak out because you’ve no idea what that means, but I think it was stepping back in and realizing that, like, the note behind that sound effect, you know, they always say, look for the note behind the note. The note behind that sound effect is that something’s work not working, but nobody can put their finger on what it is. And that’s a note like that is as much as it sucks to get a sound effect. Because you go like, well, I don’t know what to do with that. Once you calm down and look at it, you go, okay, there’s something not working here that nobody can seem to put into words, but that’s still something that you need to figure out. Or yeah, or you get the note that was like; hey, that’s going to cost a fortune. And you go, like, because sometimes you forget you, right, you know, to your imagination, and then somebody looks at you who has to do the logistics of that. And they go; like, what are you doing? And you’re like, oh, we can’t have the world explode like. So, you know? So, every and like, you hate to get that note to the note where they go, like, my first episode took place in a downpouring storm. And I feel like it was my like, second production meeting. Very close, we’re going to shoot and one of the producers looked over and was like, oh, by the way, there’s no rain. And he was like, do you know what that would cost us? And I was like, shit, okay. And it was just, you know, one of those things where I was like, I didn’t think about that I cinematically, this was dreamy, and pretty. And then they were like, Yeah, what do you think? And then they’re going to make everybody wet for eight straight days, you want to deal with those actors. And I was like, that’s because that’s another thing you got to think about. It’s like, you’re dealing with people who we had one thing during this summer, and it was, you know, it’s California, and they’re in the middle of Santa Clarita. It’s hot as hell out there. And these actors are outside, and they’re in tactical gear. And they’re out there for days. And the look on their faces is like you guys couldn’t have made this like, during winter, like this couldn’t have switch spots. So, there’s a lot of moving factors that you’ve got to remember is like, you’re doing this to another human being, who is technically your coworker. Like you don’t get to leave the set and never see them again, you’re going to see them at lunch.
Ashley
That’s such an excellent point. And I’ll often watch these movies that take place, like what was the Leonardo DiCaprio one? A couple years where he’s out in the snow. I’m sitting there thinking, this is a brilliant movie, but I sure wouldn’t…
Katie White
Right. And it’s funny, because you know, cinematically it’s fantastic. But if you can get there without torturing people, it’s awesome. You know, it’s awesome, mostly on something where they’re like, hey, like, this is a procedural, you’re not actually driving the plot at all. Like, you know, like, Leonardo DiCaprio. In that movie, he couldn’t have been in a cabin the whole time. It wouldn’t have anything, you know, but we don’t need to hack actually, we can say like, it’s coming down hard out there, and then show a stock image. Like they’re like, that’s probably the way to go. But it’s also hard. You know, you’ve got night shoots in LA, where suddenly the temperature drops, and everybody’s in winter coats, and you’re like, oh, shit. So, you know, it’s, you always see like, the second that yell cut, like, 10 people run over with coats for the actors. And it’s like, well, yeah, they’re freezing.
Ashley
Yeah, yeah. So, I’m curious too, as a writer, director, that and now also, maybe producer I noticed on the Containing Charlie, your list is one of the producers. How do you just in general feel about you know, the bureaucracy that is television writing. And as I told you before, the I’ve done no TV work at all, but I have been hired to write some scripts. And it always makes me feel more like a craftsman or maybe a mechanic as opposed to an artist. The projects where I’ve written, directed and produced are vastly different just on a creative fulfilment scale. But how do you deal with that? Because it sounds very bureaucratic in the TV writing, you’re getting notes from a lot of people that you may not even really agree with, but you’re ultimately being paid to implement them.
Katie White
I think that’s was probably one of the hardest lessons for me to learn because I do come from the indie world. And I come from the world where I write it and people go, Oh, that’s good. We go with it. You know, and I have the final say. And I do think that was one of the I remember having like a breakdown and crying my eyes out. And because I got a scene that completely rewritten and I wasn’t that I was like, insulted. I felt stupid. I was like, oh, I missed the mark. And this wonderful writer, Scott Williams, brought me in his office, shut the door, was like fried out, get it out of your system. And he was like, every single person on TV is rewritten. He was like, it is not your show. It’s the showrunner show. He was like one day, you will have your own show. And you’re going to hire somebody, they’re going to write something and you’re going to go Oh, I get what they were going with. But like the show, it needs to be little bit more like this. He’s like, that person should probably go in an office and cry. He’s like, because like we all you have a moment where you go like, wait, no, I did that. Well, and then you have a moment of going like, oh, am I an imposter? Like that’s the worst part is when you go like, oh, I thought I did what needed to be done. And then it’s not. But it’s also it was realizing that like, no matter what, I’m not in this person’s head, and it is there. Like the showrunner runs the direction of the characters and the storylines, like, that’s their job. So, like, they have a different idea. Even if it’s just like a tweak of something of a different direction a character would go in and it’s a very hard thing to realize and I think a lot of mostly lately I’ve been doing because I’m not working at the moment, I’ll do notes for money. Because I’m like a hooker like I need to do some work. And one of the most fascinating things that I find is when people go, I go; well, hey, like, with this scene, you know what might be neat, and they go now. And they’re like, no, I’m not going to change anything. And I always go like, you’re this is a television pilot, like, learn to change, like, it’s the greatest realization is to say, like, because then I’m very lucky and NCIS that we got to go produce our own episodes. So, we got to be on set, which a lot of TV shows you don’t even get to do that. And but you go down there with a script. And like, at this point, everybody’s like, okay, we can shoot this, which is, you’re like, Thank God, we found something you’re like, it’s not exactly what I wrote. It’s got the same kind of idea of what I wrote, you’re like, but we’re going to do this. And then you get on set. And you’ll hear an actor say a line. And the worst part is when you go like; Oh, God, like I wrote that. And that sounds, you know, just sounds terrible coming out of their mouths, or they look at you and go, like, I don’t know if I would say this. And your first instinct is to have a panic attack, because some famous actor is looking at you going, like, what do you mean by this? And you suddenly have no idea what you meant by it. Like, no matter how many times they would ask me like, hey, what does this mean? I’d be like, I don’t even know what you’re talking like. It’s like, you just draw a blank like, instantly, because it’s an environment you’re not used to. You’re not used to having conversations with like, I was not used to speaking to Mark Harmon about his acting like it was like his production of an episode like I, that was completely new to me. And then you hear it there and you go, oh, it’s it doesn’t really work. And then the actors put their inflection on things. And then the director puts their inflection on things. And I mean, in film school, they say there’s like the, you know, the thing you write the thing you produce, and the thing that you get at the end, like there’s three different movies, there’s three different projects completely. And I think when you can’t budge, is when you can’t work because it is a collaborative medium. It is a complete, like, you’ll get on set, and we had a scene where it was really wordy. I’ve written a shit ton of dialogue and the actress. You could just tell she wasn’t feeling it. And it’s and the director was like, something’s off. And I was like, I think it’s just too wordy. And he took some of it out. And together, we were all like, Shit, this works better flows better. But the minute you go like, I think it was Phoebe Waller Bridge who said like it’s, the screenplay is an is a blueprint or something. And people freaked out. Because they like is not a blueprint. It’s exactly what you’re doing. And it’s like, no, it isn’t. And if you walk into a TV set, you know, if you’re writing a feature, you’ve got the chance that you can do that. But if you’re on a TV set, and you’re like; No, it has to be this like you’re just writing your own ticket out of there. Yeah.
Ashley
So, what are you working on, now? I noticed on IMDb, as I said, you had this Containing Charlie is listed as being in development. But what are you doing now with your career? What are you trying to push forward?
Katie White
Yeah, Charlie has been in development for probably 10 years. That’s my baby that we always say, like, I’ll get it done one day, it might be in the next five years, it might be in the next 50. But like one day that will get made. It’s just the indie film world is, you know, it’s brutal, and it’s hard to raise the money, and then the cost of everything keeps going up. So, what we were trying to make for you know, a couple 100 grand 10 years ago was now 800 grand at this point, because the cost of everything has changed. It’s just that’s a wild world. I’m also writing a feature with a producer, we came up with an idea together. Over the summer, I’ve been writing that I’ve been writing to TV pilots, before I left NCIS, I just gotten my first agent who’s fantastic. And I was with a new manager for the last couple of years. And it really is finding the right team to work with that really matters. When I was looking for a new manager. It was right in the beginning of COVID. And I was querying people. And I queried a lot of people and I got about 12 or 13. Like, yes, we’ll read your work, messages. And a couple of them were like, hey, we want to meet with you. And it was all Zoom, obviously. And most of them are like this stuff’s great. We’re going to hit the ground running, like, can’t wait to work with you. And that was what one person said, the next person was like, we love everything you’ve written and I was feeling so high. And then I met with this gentleman and he was like, you’ve really good work and I think we can make this great. And I remember in my head going like, wait, what like everybody else is blowing smoke up my ass, but you’re not. And he was like, well, like, let’s talk about where we want to where you want to take your career and I was like; oh shit, you actually want to cultivate a career for me and we’re looking at the long run and the most important thing I think, to do when you get in this industry is realize that it is a long game. You are always playing the long game. If you are waiting to break in and six months, just go home because you’re going to just make yourself miserable, you’re going to go home in six months anyway, like, if you have to be willing to say; Well, I hope in 10 years, I can do this. And if you can do that, then you can find people who are willing to help you and, you know, work with you. And he’s been phenomenal. So now that I have him and an agent who’s amazing, it’s been great, because we’re kind of, I have this like tag team group working for me, which has been awesome. So now that I left the show, I’ve had so much time to work I left in July. So, I’ve been writing, you know, I’ve rewrote a pilot from that we liked but that just wasn’t hitting all the marks. And then I wrote a new pilot. And then I have this feature. And the goal is when January hits, and you know, the, the industry comes back from the two-month hiatus, it feels like it goes on, that we’ll have fresh material to go out with and I’ve been taking a lot of meetings. And that’s the hope is to you know, sell something, get stabbed in something, get just even getting development with somebody or just make those connections, because it’s just kind of work in the long game.
Ashley
Yeah, yeah, for sure. So, I just like to wrap up the interviews by asking the guests, is there anything you’ve seen recently, Netflix, Hulu, HBO, that you can recommend? Maybe something a little below the radar, but really anything you’ve been watching that you think a writing audience could get some value out of?
Katie White
Yeah, I know that. Everybody’s probably said that Bear on Hulu. I feel like that’s everybody’s out here thing right now, because, but I think the interesting thing to watch the Bear for as a writer is, since the bear came out, which is a 30 Minute. I don’t even know what I guess dramaturgy. I don’t even know what category you’d put it in. But it’s definitely not a straight comedy. And ever since that came out. I’d say half of the meetings I’ve taken people have gone. Okay, so that’s an hour-long dramedy that you have. And I said yes. And they ever thought about making it a half hour, because they’ve seen that it works. And it works. Even if you look at like a Hacks, you know, Hacks on HBO, it’s like Hacks is like 30 ease some minutes. You know, it’s kind of ebbs and flows in that world. But it’s comedy, but it’s also a lot of heart and a lot of drama. And I think I just feel like the 30 minute is kind of what people are leaning towards a little bit more. So, I think it’s always good to have one of those in your back pocket. And I think the Bear is a really good example. I’m also obsessed with outer range, which I believe is on prime. And it’s written by a playwright, I think it’s very interesting, because it’s allowed a lot of freedom to be a very slow burn. But it’s just a very beautiful Western neat sci-fi, which I never thought would be either of those would be my thing. And it just works really well. But if you want to study some dialogue, that show because it’s written by a playwright where the you know, the words are allowed to be a little flowery, but they come off. When you put those in the mouth of like a cowboy. You’re like, oh, shit, that works. Yeah. So, I think those are the two that I’ve been like studying lately. And watching and going like, this is fascinating. Yeah.
Ashley
Yeah, those are great recommendations. What’s the best way for people to keep up with what you’re doing? I will put these in the show notes, Twitter, Facebook, a blog, anything, you’re comfortable sharing, Instagram?
Katie White
I guess Twitter is, I’ve always had to look up my twitter name is. It’s funny. As a writer, I legitimately put my name in there like with some but there already is a Katy White. And I was like, okay, they’re like, but there’s no, Katiew552. And I was like, whatever. So that’s what I am. @KatieW552. And people are like, what does it mean? I’m like, it means that’s what automatically came up. And I just went with it.
Ashley
Gotcha, gotcha. I’ll round that up for the show notes. And we link to your IMDb page as well. So, people can see that, Katie, I appreciate you coming on talking with me. Good luck with your rest of your career. And I look forward to have you back on when you get some of these features done.
Katie White
Thank you. This was so much fun. I really appreciate it.
Ashley
Thank you. We’ll talk to you later. Bye.
SYS’s from concept to completion, screenwriting course is now available, just go to www.sellingyourscreenplay.com/screenwritingcourse. It will take you through every part of writing a screenplay, coming up with a concept, outlining, writing the opening pages the first act, second act, third act and then rewriting and then there’s even a module at the end on marketing your screenplay once it’s polished and ready to be sent out. We’re offering this course in two different versions, the first version, you get the course. Plus, you get three analyses from an SYS reader, you’ll get one analysis on your outline, and then you’ll get two analyses on your first draft of your screenplay. This is just our introductory price, you’re getting three full analyses, which is actually the same price as our three-pack analysis bundle. So, you’re essentially getting the course for free when you buy the three analyses that come with it. And to be clear, you’re getting our full analysis with this package. The other version doesn’t have the analysis, so you’ll have to find some friends or colleagues who will do the feedback portion of the course with you. I’m letting SYS Select members do this version of the course for free. So if you’re a member of SYS Select you already have access to you also might consider that as an option if you join us SYS that you will get the course as part of that membership to a big piece of this course is accountability. Once you start the course you’ll get an email every Sunday with that week’s assignment. And if you don’t complete it, we’ll follow up with another reminder, the next week is easy to pause the course if you need to take some time off. But as long as you’re enrolled, you’ll continue to get reminders for each section until it’s completed. The objective of the course is to get you through it in six months, so that you have a completed power screenplay ready to be sent out. So, if you have an idea for a screenplay, and you’re having a hard time getting it done, this course might be exactly what you need. If this sounds like something you’d like to learn more about, just go to www.sellingyourscreenplay.com/screenwritingcourse. It’s all one word, all lowercase. I will of course, the link to the course in the show notes. And I will put a link to the course on the homepage up in the right-hand sidebar.
On the next episode of the podcast, I’m going to be interviewing producer and director Roxanne Benjamin, she just directed a horror film called There’s Something Wrong with the Children. But she got her start really just as a horror film fan, going to film festivals, networking, meeting people, and eventually getting a job in the business not as a writer producer, just kind of a low-level job. But using this experience with film festivals in her network of horror filmmakers. She landed this job at a production company. Eventually she helped produce the horror film VHS, which was a very successful found footage film. We’ve even had one of the writers it was a you know, they took a bunch of different filmmakers and let them do kind of a small, little horror short. And then there was sort of an overarching story that they were all under. It’s a very interesting film, I think it’s still available on Netflix and Hulu and that sort of thing. So, I definitely would recommend checking it out. Again, if you’re doing low budget found footage films, VHS is really a great example of one of those. So that’s where she got her start. And then she was able to parlay that into directing, producing and directing some other films. So now she’s got a new one coming out. That’s called There’s Something Wrong with the Children, so we’ll talk about that. And then also talk about VHS and kind of how she got her start in the business and worked her way up. Very transparent. And really, as I said, she gives some really great detail into how she’s been able to produce and direct so many films in her career. So, keep an eye out for that episode next week. That’s the show. Thank you for listening.