This is a transcript of SYS 509 – From NBC Intern To Writer/Producer of TV With Grant Rosenberg.
Welcome to Episode 509 of the Selling Your Screenplay Podcast. I’m Ashley Scott Meyers, screenwriter and blogger over at sellingyourscreenplay.com. Today I am interviewing Grant Rosenberg, who’s worked at all levels as a TV writer. He’s got a fascinating story. He began his career as a page over at NBC, and literally worked his way up into story development. Eventually, he started writing, ended up working as a writer in television for many years. Now he is writing novels. So, it’s a great story. He’s a great communicator. So, he really gives us some insight into how his writing career came together in a very straightforward and organic way. So, stay tuned for that interview.
If you find this episode valuable, please help me out by giving me a review in iTunes or leaving a comment on YouTube or retweeting the podcast on Twitter or liking or sharing it on Facebook. These social media shares really do help spread word about the podcast, so they’re very much appreciated. Any websites or links that I mentioned in the podcast can be found on my blog in the show notes. I also publish a transcript with every episode in case you’d rather read the show or look at something later on. You can find all the podcast show notes at www.sellingyourscreenplay.com/podcast and then just look for episode 509. If you want my free guide How to Sell a Screenplay in Five Weeks, you can pick that up by going to www.sellingyourscreenplay.com/guide. It’s completely free, you just put in your email address, and I’ll send you a new lesson once per week for five weeks along with a bunch of bonus lessons, I teach the whole process of how to sell your screenplay in that guide. I’ll teach you how to write a professional logline and query letter, and how to find agents, managers and producers who are looking for material. Really is everything you need to know to sell your screenplay, just go to www.sellingyourscreenplay.com/guide.
So, a quick few words about what I’m working on. It’s what I’m trying to find time, as I’ve been talking about over the last year just to do this rewrite on my indie rom-com, I have been digging in a little bit, I definitely have a little more time now that the film festival is over. But it’s just definitely been difficult finding time and not making a ton of progress. But I am starting to dig into a muddled down in some large technical issues right now, the web server that I have selling your screenplay on and a bunch of other websites as well is in need of a large upgrade. And it’s going to be a pretty big project for me to manage. And I’ll be doing the of some of the actual upgrading as well. So, I’ve got to get that done sooner rather than later. The server, just the operating system on the server is no longer supported. And there’s just a number of things that need to be upgraded about it and as I said, it’s going to be a large technical project as this does definitely taking up a lot of my time. And I mentioned these things because I know we all feel this at times that there’s other priorities in our life that get in the way of our writing, especially something like this where it’s basically a spec script. You know, this isn’t a writing assignment. Obviously, if it was a paid writing assignment, I would be more inclined to make time for it. It’d be easy to get it done. But something like this is going to be me it’s a spec script. I’m just trying to get this thing polished up, and then I’m going to go and try and produce it myself. So, you know, there’s no one looking over me and kind of pushing me to do it. It’s all up to me. And as I said, it’s just proving difficult right now, just with all the things that I have on my plate. So, as I said, I just I mentioned these things, because I think it’s relatable. And I know we all feel like this at times. But eventually, you know, if we want to be writers, we must write so you know, write, I shall. But it’s definitely not going as well, well as I would like. So that’s sort of the things that I’ve been working on. Now. Let’s get into the main segment. Today, I am interviewing Grant Rosenberg, here is the interview.
Ashley
Welcome, Grant to the Selling Your Screenplay Podcast. I really appreciate you coming on the show with me today.
Grant Rosenberg
Thanks so much for having me. I’m very happy to be here.
Ashley
So, to start out, maybe you can tell us a little bit about your background. Where do you grow up? And how did you get interested in the entertainment business?
Grant Rosenberg
I grew up in San Francisco Bay Area, and had no intention to get into this business. Initially, I went to UC Davis too, with the intention of eventually going on to law school. So, I have a degree in political science, which is of no value. And halfway through my college years, I decided I didn’t want to go to law school. And I would have preferred to get into news, news broadcasting. So, I got a second degree in mass communications. And the first job I had other than radio, I did some radio news and local station Sacramento. That wasn’t where I wanted to be. I ended up getting a job at NBC in Burbank as a Page with the intent of being hired off the page staff and into the news department as an intern. So took me about, I don’t know six months to even get an interview at NBC because it’s very, very… if you’re not a son of or a daughter of, or a nephew or a niece, it’s pretty hard to get one of those jobs. Anyway, I finally got one. And by the time I got there, the news director said, ‘Yeah, we’re not really hiring.’ So here I was, you know, doing things like being an usher on The Tonight Show and giving tours at NBC, not really what I had in mind. And just a shortcut it when you’re a page, you take whatever opportunity presents itself, to get off the page staff. The first opportunity that came available for me was the research department. And I wasn’t something I was particularly interested in. But it turned out to be something I guess I was adept at, because I got a job in the research department at NBC. And then eventually was hired at Paramount in the research department.
Ashley
And what are you actually researching? Like you’re researching, like titles on IP or something? Or you’re researching stories? Like, what is the actual research?
Grant Rosenberg
Excellent question. Back then we were researching pilots. There’s a place in in Southern California called ASI, at least there was, which is a theater that tests pilots. And they bring groups of people in maybe 100-150 and they watch the pilot, and then they fill out questionnaires afterwards. So, it’s just like doing movies screening kind of thing like that. So, we did that plus we did. We were researching. It was mostly quantitative, and to a point in qualitative research on existing shows at NBC. So not to date myself, but I have no problem doing that, back then it was a Little House on the Prairie and things like that. And we would do audience groups and say, what do you like about this show? What would you like to see about the show, and then we would mash all that together, right reports and give that to the show runners. But we’d give it to the creative people at NBC. And they’d forward it on to the show runners. So, when I went to Paramount to do the same sort of thing. I moved up the ranks rather quickly. And I was doing not only TV research, but also film market research. So, I was the guy who was handing out the cards in theaters all around the country, to test audiences. And then afterwards, I would write my report up. So, the one year that I did that I was on the road, I think 30-weekends, in one year. And because you fly out on Thursday, and you do one on Friday, in Kansas City, and then you get on an airplane, you fly to Boston, and you do one in Boston, and then you fly home and that there goes your weekend.
Ashley
Now that seems as you’re describing it, I have to say it seems like an excellent job for someone that’s coming up the writing ranks, like you’re seeing firsthand what people how they respond to material, what they like, what they don’t like, you’re seeing what stuff makes it to the pilot stage, what stuff gets from a pilot to an actual show order. So, it seems like that’s actually maybe a little bit to the side of writing. But it seems like actually an excellent background for writing. Do you feel that way? You got a lot of that?
Grant Rosenberg
Oh, absolutely. There were a lot of things I learned coming up. That was most mostly by osmosis. You know, when you’re doing this, so often you’re learning what makes people turn the dials, what makes people rate something higher than something else. And I’ll tell you one of the thing is because I do besides my writing, I also do a lot of lectures for young screenwriters. And one of the things I constantly tell them is to avoid confusion in your writing. Err on the side of clarity, because if someone comes across something that’s confusing, they’re going to tune out, either an agent or a producer is just going to say… heck with it. I’ve got a pile of scripts to read. And I’m confused. And I’m not going to go any further. And I learned that early on doing research because when people would rate a pilot low, one of their biggest complaints was I didn’t get I didn’t understand I was lost in the plot, so I just like tuned out. So, the answer your question, is it absolutely helped, I didn’t know what I wanted to do at that point. But it absolutely helped shape me later as a writer, producer. And I eventually just to finish the transition. I was fortunate that I was working directly with not only the president of the television division because I was giving feeding him information. But I was also working with Michael Eisner and Jeff Katzenberg and Don Simpson at the time in the feature division. So, I had a very, very high profile for someone who was rather young at the company and I initially went into Michael’s office and said, I, if I look at another row of numbers, I’m going to lose my mind. So, he was nice enough to help move me from research over into development and program development.
Ashley
Gotcha, gotcha. And then talk about that a little bit. So, then you get in development, this is over at Paramount.
Grant Rosenberg
This is paramount. Yes.
Ashley
And then you get into development, what shows are you working on? Or what does that actually mean development as a young, you know, development executive?
Grant Rosenberg
Well, first of all, back in those days, not so much anymore. We used to have rosters, right, we used to have people on overall deals, which basically means we would pay writers and or producer directors, but mostly writers, show runners to, we would guarantee them a lump sum of money. So let’s say we’re offering someone, we give someone $250,000 for a two year contract. So, they’re exclusive to Paramount. And I am meeting with them constantly to help develop their ideas, and shape them. So, then we can take him and pitch them to that back then the three networks, which there was only three networks, so simplified things, but we had a smaller, a smaller opportunity to sell. But just the way the finances work without getting into the weeds. Once the writer sold something, he or she would get credited, let’s say they’re going to write a pilot, they’re going to get $50,000, that $50,000 would work would be applied against their guarantee. So, what they attempted to do and what we attempted to do was for them to exceed their guarantee, because that means everybody that means success, that means they’ve got a series on the air. So, it’s working with writers who I have under contract, but it’s also working with freelance writers who would come in, you know, and I took pitches, hundreds of pitches from people pitching, I was in the drama department. And I would then shake them, and then query the people at ABC, CBS and NBC, we’ve got this great idea with this great hot writer. And we would go in then and pitch. And I would either depending upon the writer, I would either let the writer do the pitch, or I would jump in and help. As you probably know, and as your listeners may be experiencing, writers tend not to be the best salespeople for their own material, because writing is kind of a solitary job, and a lot of writers that I’ve come into contact with over the years tend to be introverted and not great salespeople. So, we would kind of tag team them.
Ashley
Yeah, yeah. So maybe you can just quickly and just one minute, two minutes, just give us some tips on pitching as someone who’s both done some of these pitches and been on the receiving end. Are there some tips for writers that you can just give us quickly about pitching?
Grant Rosenberg
Sure, the important thing is to have a great logline and to be whatever it takes for you to exude confidence in that at that moment to do your what they call these days, elevator pitches, but to know your logline inside out. Prior to that, though, it becomes a question of are you developing something to fill a need? Or are you developing a project that you love? And then you hope someone else will love it too? So, for example, we would ask the network’s ahead of time, what are you guys looking for? Well, back then they were looking for blue sky dramas, meaning someplace, Hawaii, West Coast someplace that was open. And it’s like, okay, so then we get our writers working to fill that niche, as opposed to something that perhaps you were I would do, which is I’ve got this great idea. I’m going to develop it and try to go sell it, you may find out that no one wants idea which happens all the time. But yeah, it’s really to keep it brief. And to understand who you’re pitching to, and to do your research in terms of what kinds of shows they have on right then. And not be afraid to give some comps and I know you’ve done this before in your past too. It’s kind of Walter White meets set and then the person that you’re pitching to gets it.
Ashley
I have services that screenwriters can buy a blast service, there’s a variety of services and one of the questions I often get is; well, how many sales have had people make? How much money have people made from this? And like, I wonder just from like a pitching standpoint, how much of a pitch is about making the sale? And how much of the pitch is about just getting to know the executive so the next time you pitch you do a little better, and you’re starting to build those relationships? How much of going in and doing a pitch to someone like yourself was? How much was it about making the sale on the day? Or how much was it about just building that relationship and getting to know that person a little bit?
Grant Rosenberg
That’s such a smart question, actually. It is really an ongoing combination of both. I have pitched you know, my own projects countless times, and made a couple of sales. Look, generally when you go in the person is pre-programmed to say no. And you have to understand that unless you are at the top of the food chain, you’re pitching to someone who doesn’t have the ability to say yes, they just don’t they have the ability to say no, they’re a gatekeeper. And they have the ability to say I really liked this, I’ll take it up with the person who has the ability to say yes. So that’s one other thing is if you get the ability to pitch someplace. There’s a mixed feelings about leave behinds, I always like leaving behind at least a page, because you’re counting on someone who doesn’t have your enthusiasm, to go into the next office to pitch your idea. You want to give them a cheat sheet so they remember what you went into pitch. Part of pitching too is knowing that you’re going into some place, you have to be realistic about it, they’re predisposed to not buy it just because they got a billion pitches, and package it, if you can, package it if you’re a young writer, and maybe you want to talk about this later, but I’ll just get it out right now, if you’re a young writer who doesn’t have a lot of credits… Well, first of all, if you don’t have an agent, you’re not going to get a meeting. But let’s assume you have an agent, what you want to do is put together a package, what we used to call 100 points. And by that, I mean it me as a writer, at one point in my life, let’s say I was worth 50 points at sci fi, because that’s where I did a lot of my work. So just me going in, I had that, grab a gravitas. Now I need 50 more points to sell something. So is my idea, a 50-point idea? Maybe it’s a 30-point idea. So now I’ve got to go find a producer that they want to work with other than someone else or a director or an actor, I’ve got to put together a package that they go like, dang, between Grant and this idea, and this actress and this director, it’s kind of hard to say no to. So, it’s easier for me to say at the end for people to do it in practicality. But if you have an agent, that’s one of the things that they really need to help you with, which is to help put something together that someone just can’t say no to.
Ashley
Yeah. Sound advice, for sure. Okay. So, let’s just keep going through sort of your origin story. You’re working in development now, at what point did you were you able to make the leap to writer and I noticed on IMDb, like MacGyver is one of your first writing credits. And maybe you can talk about that, like, how did you make that leap from a development executive to actually writing something? Were you writing specs on the weekend? Did you start to come up with ideas and pitch them just maybe talk us through that transition a little more?
Grant Rosenberg
Absolutely. Actually, the first spec script I wrote was when I was a page at NBC, I wrote a spec Eight is Enough. And I sent it out there was the Writers Guild back then had a list of agents who would take non solicited, unsolicited material. And I didn’t know any better I’m me. I’m young. I’m 23 or 22. 23, I guess. So, I wrote this script. And I sent it out. And one of the people who read it was an old-time agent named Harry Gold. And he said, I want to represent you. I’m like, Oh, my God. I don’t even know if I want to do this for a living. But this is amazing. This is so easy. That was it. He sent it to Eight is Enough. And they were like, yeah, no, and I’m sure the script wasn’t very good. I mean, seriously. And so, then he was on me… you got to write, you got to write, you got to write, that’s what you need to do. You got to keep writing. And I just was newly married. I was making like zero money as a page. And then like, I don’t have time to wear with all the write. But I enjoyed the process. So, I sort of had the bug there. And when I was a development executive of the paramount and at Disney, a lot of the things that we would take in would be things that I would create and then bring to my writers. So, I worked at Disney, I was running the television department there for three years. And after 12 years as an executive I just said, you know, I just want to go on the other side, I’m just tired of doing this. I’d read and notated. Let me not exaggerate 1000 scripts as an executive. So, I felt that I could do it. And when I left Disney, I had relationships still at Paramount from when I was there. And they said, come on over here, and we’ll give you an office, we’ll give you a little bit of money. And you can write on some of our shows. So, one of the shows was MacGyver. And I was actually one of these days, maybe you and I will have a drink and I’ll tell you the whole story. It’s a long story. But I was intrinsically involved in the development and sales of MacGyver, when I was an executive, the paramount. So, I was very familiar with the guys and they said; We’ll throw you a bone, come on, and work on it. And so, I wrote a couple of episodes of that. And then similarly, I wrote an episode of Star Trek Next Generation. And both of them, I got the deals, I got the opportunity as a result of my relationship with the show runners from when I was an executive. But that was me really kind of learning to hone my craft. And also, back then you wrote on an IBM Selectric. I mean, you knew that you weren’t writing on computers. So you would write something and then you would look at it and say, No, I wanted to redo this. And it’s like for me to just change that one sentence, I’m going to have to be tight this whole page, the hell is good enough. Which was not a good attitude. But anyway, I started getting opportunities as a writer through that means.
Ashley
So, let’s talk about some of your producing credits at this at the early stages of your career. On IMDb, again, there’s the Face of Fear and another credit called Molloy. Maybe you can talk about those credits a little bit. How did you get on as executive producer? And what does that actually mean at that level?
Grant Rosenberg
Face of Fear, I was hired to run the television company of a man named Lee Rich, who was the head of Lorimar at one point, and Lee went over to Warner Brothers and got an overall deal there. And he brought me into create television for him. And that’s where Face of Fear and Malloy came in. So I was doing executive producer, because I developed this project – Face of Fear. What we did was we, in conjunction with CBS optioned I think eight books from Dean Coats. And he and I actually are still friends to this day. And we were going to make 3 TV movies out of these eight books, and the only one I got made was Faces of Fear. So, my title was because I was at the production company that I was part of the production team that brought to the forefront. And the same thing with Molloy. Molloy was a show prior to blossom. It was my Mayim Bialik, it was a sitcom, Jennifer Aniston and Mayim Bialik. And we did, I think 9 episodes or 12 episodes. And listen, being a non-writing producer on a sitcom is the best job in the entire world. Me being a writer on one is great, too, except, you know, you’re there till three in the morning eating leftover Chinese food. Being a non-writer is like, this is fantastic.
Ashley
But so then, okay, so then let’s talk about some of the credits that you then combine producing and writing, Time Trax is another project you worked on. Maybe you can talk about that a little bit. How did you then eventually bring together something that you’re also the writer and the producer on?
Grant Rosenberg
Great question. So, Time Trax was based on an idea that I had, I was working at Warner Brothers with a man named Gary Nardino, who used to be president of Paramount Television when I was there. That I was working with Gary at Warner Brothers. I had this idea and we pitched it to then a consortium called PTN, which is the Paramount Television Entertainment Network. And they had a station group so it’s directly for syndication. So, they liked the idea, but they said we want a big-name showrunner. And Gary had a relationship as did I with Harvey Bennett, who had done some of the star tracks. And so, we brought Harv onboard and Harvey and I then developed the idea and we sold it. And the great thing there was we didn’t do a pilot they just gave us 22 episodes, and we ended up doing two seasons 44 episodes, shot on the Gold Coast in Australia. So, I went over for a couple of months each year. So, it was really my first opportunity to start learning how to become a showrunner, which is writing scripts, developing scripts, rewriting scripts, and then being on set to answer questions and to help move things along, but also to impart your creative vision to the director and the actors, etc.
Ashley
So, you mentioned that when you were as a page, you got an agent from that Eight is Enough episode, did you still have this same agent and just maybe talk about your journey there as getting an agent, I assume by the time you’re doing Time Trax, you probably have a different agent. But maybe we can talk about that transition a little bit how you ultimately worked up to that?
Grant Rosenberg
Well, when you’re an executive, you a development executive, creative executives, you’re on the phone with agents all day long. I mean, like, all day long, so you develop relationships. Back then it was William Morris, ICM, CA, and you get to know all of those guys. And back then they were mostly just guys. Plus, once you reach the vice president level, as a creative executive, they put you under contract. So, I then asked various agents, would you represent me in my negotiation, because now I’m negotiating my executive deal. So, when I transitioned into, when I left Disney and started writing and producing, I have relationships with dozens of agents. And I reached out to one of them, who I was very friendly with and said, this is what I’m doing. You want to handle the negotiation. And he did. And then over the years, and I think this is rather common, at least for someone at my level, or and I would say, my level is not like, you know, Steven Bochco or the Charles Brothers. But I made a very good living as a writer producer for a long time, you tend to change agents, often, and I say often, like every three, four years, because it gets stale. And what you find is that agents have relationships. Certain agents have certain relationships with certain buyers. And they when you go, like I’m at CAA, and they say; okay, we’ve got these 12 people that we want you to meet, and then it’s all going to be great and do meet and greets and pitch. And then after those 12 people, it’s kind of like, we don’t know who else to call now. So, then it’s like, well, I’m going to go to ICM. And ICM, is like, have you visited this person? This person? This person? No. That’s their relationships. So, I bounced around to different agents throughout my career, which is not uncommon.
Ashley
Yeah. It’s interesting, too. I mean, as you tell your story, I’ve never heard obviously, this exact story of becoming a writer producer on TV. But it’s actually feels like a very organic story, starting as a page, and just slowly working your way up. And at least the way you’re describing it, none of these sales or deals that you had, really, the agent didn’t get any of those for you. It was your relationships, and it was your work. And I think that’s another misconception that a lot of writers have is they just feel like if I can get that agent, everything is smooth sailing, because they’ll just be able to sell all my scripts. And unfortunately, it’s not always that easy.
Grant Rosenberg
Now, what an agent does is gives you entree, and it gives you credibility. And it’s hustle. I mean, you know that, you got to hustle your own stuff, like a lot. And when you’re young, starting out, it’s hard because you don’t have the context. I’ve heard people on your podcast, say, and this couldn’t be more true – That networking is critical. Networking is beyond critical. Because once you form relationships, like for example, if I was to get a call tomorrow, that saying, ‘Hey, we want you to come run this show for us. We want to hire you to come in and run this show.’ Well, there are half a dozen people who I would reach out to immediately to say, ‘Hey, do you want to come do this with me.’ A production designer who I’m very fond of directors who I know very well. writers like writer producers who I trust and have a shorthand with and we speak the same language. That’s relationships. That’s not because there’s so much more talented necessarily than the person next to them or the person down the street. It’s because those are the relationships, I have that make me comfortable and I know they can do the job. It starts at the base level. And some people They say like, well, I’m not going to go to this mixer or something because you know, there’s a guy, there’s no one there, I want to be a film director. And these are a bunch of TV guys, it’s like, you just never know. You can’t have enough friends in this business.
Ashley
The other common criticism is that and I’ve been to these mixers where it’s all a bunch of people like yourself at the sort of the lower levels, everybody’s trying to network, but there’s no one there that actually has any juice. But those people exactly what you were saying with some of those people, exactly, everyone’s going to move up. So, building those relationships early on is is the easiest way to get them. Because once they’ve moved up the ladder is going to be much harder to get to meet these people and to become friends with them.
Grant Rosenberg
Yeah, when I was an executive, I used to run a charity golf tournament for about five years. And it became much too big and it was too big of a drag. But one of the reasons I did it was because we would invite actors and studio heads, who I otherwise maybe not, wouldn’t brush shoulders with. And you know, so all of a sudden, I’m in a foursome with Bochco. And if you’re in a social setting, it’s different than me going into his office and trying to pitch myself as a writer. But now I have a relationship with him and Brandon Tartikoff. Now I have a relationship with Him. Here’s the other thing, I do a lot of speaking at conferences and things. And I always say, if you have any questions, you have my email, because that’s how we communicated initially. Feel free to reach out to me, I’m not going to read your script. But if you have a question about something, feel free to reach out to me. Actually, I got to tell you, maybe in 15 years, for people have, I think they’re intimidated, or they don’t have any questions. But if I was in their position, you know, I tell people, there’s a fine line between being aggressive, and being a pain in the ass. And you have to be willing to bump up against that line in this business. You just have to.
Ashley
Yeah, yeah. So well, this would be a good litmus test. At the end of this interview, you can drop your email address, and we’ll see if some selling writers write to you. I think I can bring you more than four.
Grant Rosenberg
I’ll drop my website. That’ll be easier, though. Because then at least I’ll have to do a little bit of gymnastics.
Ashley
To find it. Yeah, yes. Okay, so just in the year 2023, what should people be doing to break into television, in terms of writing specs, originals, I know, that sort of change. I know, in the 90s, when I moved out to Hollywood, everybody was writing specs of Friends and Seinfeld and this sort of stuff. And over the years, it’s sort of merged. Now people want to see original pilots and this sort of stuff, but just talk us through that stuff. What should people be writing in the year 2023, if they want to get staffed on a TV show?
Grant Rosenberg
Well, I have a couple of things to say, first of all, as we talked, I am currently writing novels as opposed to actively developing for television. So, I may not have the up-to-date information on that. The other thing is that your listeners need to be aware of the unfortunate reality is at that shows these days, the orders tend to be less, the number of episodes tend to be less. And the reason I mentioned that is that becomes fewer opportunities for freelance writers. So, if they order something if someone orders something, and they ordered just 10 episodes of it, which seems to be sort of the current thing that the streamers are doing, if I’m a showrunner and I hire three writers to be on staff, and I’m talking about dramas, not comedies, comedy rooms are much bigger. But I hire three or four writers, the way that they get compensated is a little long-winded answer, but I apologize. The way that my writers get compensated is I’m going to give them each at least one script, probably two. So that bolsters their compensation. So, if I write two and each of the writers write two, maybe there’s one script left to give out. So, in the old days, you could make a living and get a name as a freelance writer, like I did, when I was first starting out, there were opportunities because they were ordering 22 episodes and staff weren’t going to write them all. These days, the number of episodes is shorter. So, what you really want to do is get on staff, and there’s a couple of ways to do that. One is to start out as a script coordinator, which is the person who coordinates all the material, it’s an assistant job, but he or she works very closely with the writers. And quite often if you’re interested in writing and you’re keen and you’re involved and you have writer producers above you who are open to it, you’re getting all the information that’s coming in, you’re disseminating it, but you’re in a really good position to impress people. And I’ve seen a lot of opportunity, a lot of situations where script coordinators will ascend to become a staff writer in the next season. Again, relationships, make a relationship with the people in that room, they get on another show, and they say, ‘Hey, how about Bob, let’s bring them over.’ In terms of material. Again, I think that writing specs these days originals is probably that you’re better suited to do that than to write a spec episode of something. Because the chances of you getting hired on to a series, there’s just not that many opportunities out there. If you write a really hot, new interesting idea, then a smart show runner or moreover, someone at a production company, so I’m going to Disney or Fox or Columbia or wherever, couldn’t say, wow, this person is really great. Let’s see if we can find a place for them. So, it would seem to me, I don’t know what your feelings on that is. But it would seem to me if you write something original, it helps you stand out a little better than if you’re writing a spec episode of any of the shows that are out there, right?
Ashley
Yeah. I’m curious. I mean, and it sounds like you know, sort of the bedrock of your career was sort of the networking and the relationships. But what do you think I’ve had a number of writers on over the years that have done real well with these fellowships, Disney and I think NBC a lot of these companies have these fellowships, and they’re designed to try and break new writers in you get you know, that things. So, was that something that you bumped into as an executive? Would you bring in some of these writers, and just what’s your sort of take on that, in general, as are those writers typically as good as the writers you get from these other areas where networking relationships?
Grant Rosenberg
I’ve had a couple of instances where I’ve worked on shows, and to be honest, I don’t remember which, but worked on shows where the production company, Warner Brothers would say, we’ve got these young people in our program, and we read their material. And you know, here, we want you to read the material. Because A) We want to give them a foot up, and B) We think they’re pretty good. So that carries a lot of weight. If you can get in one of those programs, I mean it, it checks so many boxes, first of all, you’re making relationships with people at Studio, invaluable. And you’re making relationships with the cadre of people that you’re working with who are in your quote class, and you’re learning how to write. And hopefully you’re being exposed. Part of it, part of the experience, too, is getting exposure to show runners and things. So, I would meet with these people, for sure. I’m a huge believer in paying forward or paying backward or whatever. I’m a huge believer in that. I would always invite, when I was on a show, I would always invite anybody who worked there. Like you want to come and sit in the room, you can come sit in the room and see if we do, if you want to come to a dubbing session, you can come to a session, if you want to come to an edit session, you can sit in because you need to learn. And again, it’s shocking how many people like… yeah, but I’m going to play hockey on the weekend. And it’s been talking about my days in Canada now. So, I don’t have time to do that. It’s like I get it. I appreciate it. If you want it, you got to really want it because there’s a lot of work that goes into it. But yeah, those programs if you can get into one of those, I think it’s a huge leg up. I think also, if you don’t have an agent, it is a lot easier to find an agent if you’re coming out of the Warner Brothers training program or the Disney training program for sure.
Ashley
Yeah, yeah, for sure. What is your take on just the current Tik Tok, YouTube for writers? Do you see that as a viable avenue to potentially break in or just create? I mean, certainly now there’s people on Tik Tok that are writing original content and making a living from it. But how do you see that? Do you see that as a viable opportunity for young people? How does that sort of fit into the overall landscape of television? And as an executive, was this anything you ever paid attention to when you were staffing writers? How many subscribers or views they had on their YouTube comedies?
Grant Rosenberg
No. Well, again, back when I was doing it, it was in its infancy so it was not a thing. Do I think it’s viable now? Absolutely. Anything you can do that you’re creating something that’s tangible, is gives you a leg up. I mean, if you write and produce indirect, a little short that’s on tick tock. There’s no downside to it unless it’s awful. I mean, there’s no downside to it, you have something you can show somebody, if you’re pitching something, when you have just an idea, it’s not a lot to go on. If you if you’re pitching something, and you have an idea and a script, you have something more tangible. In my case, now, for example, I’m writing novels, and I own the IP to my own novels, and we’re in negotiation with the production company to option the material. Because these days, if you have IP, then that gives it more gravitas, it gives the project more gravitas. Anything that you can do… listen, the people who are buyers now, especially at the streamers are young. I mean, they’re not all young, but they’re young, and they get it and they understand we might be able to find a real diamond in the rough here for someone who is producing stuff for Tik Tok or producing, you know, stuff for YouTube. I mean, yeah, any avenue that you can present something on. It’s better than just sitting in a dark room and writing and casting that out into the wind.
Ashley
For sure. So, let’s talk about a little bit about your transition from screenwriter to novel wire, I get a lot of emails from people that are on the opposite side of that, where they’ve written a novel or two, and then they want to convert it to a screenplay, from where I sit, and the advice I give them. Typically, I get novel writers that they can’t sell their novel, and they think it would make a great movie, so they decided maybe I could turn into a screenplay. And my point to them is always well, you really need to learn how to market your novel and make that a success. This writing a screenplay is really just going to be a diversion to what you really need to do to be a successful novelist. But you’re coming at it from the opposite perspective, where you have a good track record as a screenwriter, maybe you can talk about that transition. But first, just why did you want to make that transition, what was appealing about being a novel writer?
Grant Rosenberg
Executive for 12 years, and the showrunner and writer for 28 years. So, after 40 years of doing this, it was like, you know what? I’ve done it. And it’s of the age now where studios are looking for younger, hipper, show runners, I get that. It’s a younger person’s business, I get that too. My wife and I lived in Southern California for the bulk of the time that I was producing, even though most of my productions were in Canada. And we decided, you know what, let’s move out of Southern California. And we moved to central Oregon and built a house in Central Oregon down by bend, or up by bend, I guess. And when you’re physically not in the area, you’re kind of out of sight, out of mind. Even though all the producing I was doing was in Canada, I didn’t really matter. And it was something I always wanted to try to try to write a novel to me it was sort of the third iteration of my career going from an executive to a writer, producer to now a novelist. And I had written a pilot and this sort of tick some of the boxes that you’re asking, I’d written a pilot called Gideon, on spec 12 years ago, and it’s dark, it’s anti-heroes sort of Elizbeth Salander kind of character. And we pitched it around, and no one wanted to buy it, which was okay, it was one of those instances of something that I really felt passionate about. So, I figured, I’m just going to write it, it’s going to be easier for me to write it than to pitch it. And there just wasn’t a market for it. But I always loved the idea. So, when I decided to write a novel, I said, you know, I love this idea. I’m going to take it and turn it into a novel. And I did and it started getting a lot of traction and the sales had been okay. But I had it out to all of my contacts in the film industry, and started getting some really strong feedback. So, I wrote a sequel, which came out a couple of months ago. And now I’m in the process of writing the third book of what I assume is going to be a trilogy. And we have production companies who are in the process of optioning the material, which ironically, then will be turned back into a television series. So, I’ve kind of already written it, although it’s morphed into something different. Yeah, taking a novel that you’ve written and thinking that you can write it as a screenplay and get some traction on it. It’s not naive, but I completely agree with you Ashley, I think it’s a lot of a lot of work, unless you are a great screenwriter as well. You’re kind of spinning your wheels, if you really believe in it, my point would be, bite the bullet and hire a screenwriter to write your book. I mean, write your screenplay, as opposed to trying to learn and do it yourself. Because man, it’s, you know, it’s a lot of work.
Ashley
Yeah, no kidding. So, let’s just talk about your writing process a little bit. And maybe you can even sort of give us some examples how it’s different than writing a screenplay versus writing a novel. And I just find, and so this will be interesting. Yeah, as I’ve gotten older, I find writing more difficult than when I did I just, I have so many other things going on. And I don’t know if my mind can stay as focused for as long. But maybe you can talk about your process of writing, when do you write Where do you write? And just how do you just muscle through those Dog Days someday?
Grant Rosenberg
Well, I write in the morning.
Ashley
How long do you typically?
Grant Rosenberg
I will try to write every day for four or five hours. And then I just, I just find it physically and emotionally draining. I enjoy it, I enjoy the process. But yeah, I’m better in the morning. So, my process is really born out of working in television. And when you work in television, when you work on a series you write a one pager, and then you write maybe a three pager, because you’re trying to sell your idea to your producers, or you’re trying to sell the idea to the broadcast network. And then once you get the okay you write an outline, and the outline is in drama is pretty detailed, we usually wrote like, between 12 and 15, page outlines, and you would write the outline, you would write it in screenwriter or write it in final draft, you would just like write it there, you would share it with all your colleagues. And then the note process would start blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, and you end up with an outline that you write from. And so, you’ve already got basically 14 pages of your script written now you’re filling in the dialogue and elaborating on the action. I wouldn’t call it mechanical because that denigrates the writing process. But once you get an outline approved, you stick with that outline, because that’s what’s been approved by like seven people up and down the board. When I’m writing novels, now I do the same thing, I write an outline, and then I flesh it out. I have an office in my house that I write in. And I also have a gym in my house that one wall is whiteboards, huge whiteboards, and that is going back to my TV days. And I will write out the outline basically the Beats by day on my whiteboards. And I’ll just sit there and look at it and just make sure I have the pacing, right and make sure I’ve got the story right and because my books are suspense mystery, so they have to have a certain pace to them. So, my process now is born out of writing teleplays. What I like about writing novels versus screenplays is you have a chance to be prosaic, you have a chance to write prose, and you’re painting the picture. In screenplays, as you well know you’re not really painting a picture because that’s what you do when you’re directing. I mean, that’s the picture you’re painting. It’s visual. Here, you’re painting a picture in someone’s mind. So, you can take time to just to describe that the creepy house or the foggy street. And you know, you can be prosaic with that, which I didn’t know if I was going to like it. It turns out that I do. My books have a lot of dialogue in them. And I think that’s a throwback to being a screenwriter. But I’m a voracious reader and every novelist has his or her style. So, my style, I think is very visual, because it’s born out of telling visual stories.
Ashley
How do you find the difference between like structure of a novel versus a screenplay? I mean, I think most screenwriters Are you know familiar with the Blake Snyder, Syd Field there’s sort of the three acts the paradigm, how does that then fold on to something like novel writing? How do you approach structure with a novel? Especially, these are because you’re talking about sort of these are very story driven novels, their mysteries and that sort of stuff. It’s not just a character of study.
Grant Rosenberg
Yes, and no, I think my novels are character driven. But the story is really intrinsic to driving the character to explaining who the character is, because it’s a young woman who is going through this huge transition. And the story has to serve as her transition, her transition from a doctor to a killer. And but it’s not a three-act structure, per se. Interestingly, I write short chapters, and I try to make every chapter, almost every chapter and with a little bit of a cliffhanger, a little bit of a button on it, and whether that people who read it have responded well to it, and they say; well, it’s so funny the society we’re in now, I like short chapters, because I have short attention span. It’s like, okay, if then you don’t pick up or in peace. We’re so used to watching things, absorbing things in bits, that’s like, ‘Oh, four pages, I can read that before I go to sleep. But don’t ask me to read 12.’ Whatever works for you, that’s fine.
Ashley
So, how does it work from a just getting it off the ground? Do you have a book agent? And you go to him with an idea? And he says, ‘It doesn’t sound like I could sell that.’ Or do you just write a novel and then go to your agent or, and then publisher and try and get it published? Just talk about that process? It because you had mentioned with the development executive, you know, are you doing something that because it’s your idea that you’re passionate about, or you’re doing something to fill an order? How much of that is sort of involved in novel writing?
Grant Rosenberg
It’s different for different folks. When I wrote my first novel, I was still with an agency in Los Angeles, and it was a large agency. And they had a book department. And I submitted my manuscript to them. And to my surprise, they said, ‘Well, we don’t like this.’ I said, ‘What do you mean, you don’t like it? You’re my agent. Tell me what you want me to do? We let’s go sell it.’ And they said, ‘No, we don’t want to handle this.’ So that for me was a surprise. So now I’m on my own, and I have a manuscript, and I did what most first-time novelists do. I went out and started shopping it to both agents and publishers at the same time. I ended up finding a publisher before I found an agent. So, the first book was published by a publisher in the UK, actually. And when I wrote the second book, one gentleman who was an agent of mine once a long time ago, I sent it to him, and he said, ‘Oh, we would love to handle this.’ So now I’ve got an agent, and we were looking for a publisher. And I ran into some legal situations, not personal legal situations with the book. And I ended up just saying, ‘You know what, I want to move this along.’ So, I self-published the second book.’ So, my agents now are handling the negotiations on the theatrical option. But when I write when I finished the third book, I’ll sit down with him and say, do we want to just self-publish it again? Or do we want to take it out and try to get a publishing deal, I own all the rights to the first book and the second book. So, if I write a third book, or when I write the third book, I can offer the rights to the whole trilogy to a new publisher, that would be ideal. But if your listeners think the TV business is hard, publishing world is brutal. So, I didn’t have a problem self-publishing it, it really is so simple. The leg up I have is I’ve got a lot of relationships with actors and actresses, and folks who have a lot of followers on Instagram and things like that, and they’re helping me publicize it. And once the option is done, then that’ll be another thing that I can help to market the book. So, I do have a leg up there in which is helping me move copies of the book. But traditionally, people, if you can go through a book agent, and the book agent finds a publisher and the publisher does the majority of the work so you don’t have to do it yourself. The hardest thing to do is to market it. If you’re not even with a big publisher, there’s no marketing dollars. You have to get out and figure out how to do it yourself and It’s tough to break through the morass of books that are out there.
Ashley
And so maybe that’s a good opportunity. Maybe you can just tell our listeners, where can they find your books, you can mention your website. But if they’re looking to buy your books or learn more about you.
Grant Rosenberg
So, the first book is called Gideon. And the second book is called Gideon Resurrection. They’re both available on Amazon. Of course, like everything else in the world, you can buy the book and toothpaste and a block of cheese and all in one shopping. You can find out more about the book, my website, which is www.GrantERosenberg.com. It’ll tell you about the books. And also, just as an added thing, one of the things I do besides write is I cook, like I do all the cooking, and I’ve written a cookbook called 44 Degrees, which is on my website, it’s a PDF for free that you can download. And it’s fun, it’s cool. I mean, there’s a lot of good recipes in it. That’s just sort of a bonus. If you want to get in touch with me, for whatever reason, you can contact me through my website, as well.
Ashley
Gotcha. Gotcha. And I always like to just wrap up the interviews by asking the guests, what have you seen recently, HBO, Netflix that you can recommend to our mostly screenwriting audience and just anything you’re watching that you think is interesting and worth screenwriters checking out?
Grant Rosenberg
We just finished watching Lupin series three. The first two series I think were better I think they were tighter. And if you don’t know Lupin, it’s Sherlock. It’s Holmesian. It’s Sherlock Holmes. It’s French with subtitles. If you’re ever watching anything on television, in the foreign language, watch it in that language and turn on your subtitles. Don’t watch it dubbed because it is just annoying. And you don’t get it from the actors and actresses, who are looping these foreign actors. We watched something called Bad sisters, which is BBC. Unbelievable. Fantastic. And it’s I want to say it’s on Netflix. But it might be on one of the other ones. I’m not sure.
Ashley
Perfect. So those are great recommendations. Yeah, I haven’t checked out either one of those. So, I’ll put those on my list as well. Well, Grant, I really appreciate you coming on and talking with me today. And taking a full hour out of your day to talk to us. So, I really appreciate it and good luck with your novels. And you hope we can have you back on sometime.
Grant Rosenberg
Thanks so much. I appreciate it. And yeah, let’s keep in touch. I’m interested to see what you’re up to as well.
Ashley
Perfect. Perfect. So, take it easy.
Grant Rosenberg
Thank you. Bye.
I just want to talk quickly about SYS Select. It’s a service for screenwriters to help them sell their screenplays and get writing assignments. The first part of the service is the SYS select screenplay database. Screenwriters upload their screenplays, along with a logline synopsis and other pertinent information like budget and genre, and then producers search for and hopefully find screenplays they want to produce. Dozens of producers are in the system looking for screenplays right now. There have been a number of success stories come out of the service. You can find out about all the SYS select successes by going to www.sellingyourscreenplay.com/success. Also, on SYS podcast episode 222. I talked with Steve Dearing, who was the first official success story to come out of the SYS select database. When you join SYS select you get access to the screenplay database along with all the other services that we’re providing to SYS select members. These services include the newsletter, this monthly newsletter goes out to a list of over 400 producers who are actively seeking writers and screenplays. Each SYS select member can pitch one screenplay in this monthly newsletter. We also provide screenwriting leads. We have partnered with one of the premier paid screenwriting leads services so I can syndicate their leads to SYS select members. There are lots of great paid leads coming in each week from our partner. Recently, we’ve been getting 5 to 10 high quality paid leads per week. These leads run the gamut. There are producers looking for a specific type of spec script to producers looking to hire a screenwriter to write up one of their ideas or properties. They’re looking for shorts, features, TV, and web series, pilots, all types of projects. If you sign up for SYS select you’ll get these leads emailed directly to you several times per week. Also, you get access to the SYS select forum, where we will help you with your logline and query letter and answer any screenwriting related questions that you might have. We also have a number of screenwriting classes that are recorded and available in the SYS select forum. These are all the classes that I’ve done over the years, so you’ll have access to those whenever you want once you join. The classes cover every part of writing your screenplay from concept to outlining to the first act, second act, third act, as well as other topics like writing short films and pitching your projects in person. Once again, if this sounds like something you’d like to learn more about, please go to www.sellingyourscreenplayselect.com. Again, that is sellingyourscreenplayselect.com.
On the next episode of the podcast, I’m going to be interviewing Danny Madden, who just directed a horror film called 15 Cameras, which is the third installment in the series. The first one was 13 Cameras. The second one was 14 Cameras. And then this third installment is called 15 Cameras completing this trilogy. We talked through this project, how he got involved with it, the screenplay, developing the script, and then ultimately how this film was produced. So, keep an eye out for that episode next week. That’s the show. Thank you for listening.