This is a transcript of SYS Podcast Episode 424 – Christopher Vogler and The Writer’s Journey .

Welcome to Episode 424 of the Selling Your Screenplay Podcast. I’m Ashley Scott Meyers, screenwriter and blogger with Today I’m interviewing screenwriting guru Christopher Vogler who wrote one of the most impactful how-to screenwriting books ever. It’s called the Writer’s Journey. Definitely check that out if you get a chance. He’s a super-smart guy and really has studied structure and character and has a lot of great insight into how all this works in a good screenplay. So, stay tuned for that interview.

SYS’s six-figure screenplay contest is open for submissions, just go to The early bird deadline is March 31st. So just little over a week. If your script is ready, definitely submit now as you do save some money. We’re looking for low-budget shorts and features. I’m defining low-budget as less than six figures. In other words, less than $1 million. We’ve got a lot of industry judges reading scripts in the later rounds. We’re giving away 1000s in cash and prizes. I had the winner from 2020 Richard Pearce on the podcast in Episode 378. He won the contest it was introduced to one of our industry judges, Ted Campbell, who I also interviewed on the podcast, on a later episode, I think 280, who took the script over to Mar Vista and got the film produced. And just a couple of weeks ago, we had one of our semi-finalists again from 2020 get his screenplay options. So, getting a nice little bit of traction for this contest. Anyway, if you do want to submit to the contest, or just learn a little bit more about it, just go to

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So now let’s get into the main segment. Today I am interviewing author and screenwriting guru Christopher Vogler. Here is the interview.

Ashley: Welcome, Chris to the Selling Your Screenplay Podcast. I really appreciate you coming on the show with me today.

Christopher: No, this is terrific. Glad to be here.

Ashley: So, to start out, maybe you can tell us a little bit about your background. Where did you grow up? And how did you get interested in the entertainment business?

Christopher: Sure, yeah, I grew up in St. Louis. First to the suburbs. So, I was about 10 or 11 years old, and my dad bought a farm, we moved out west of St. Louis into kind of Mark Twain country, and north and west of St. Louis. And, you know, that isolated me, but it threw focus, I think on the media. So, TV and movies became important to me, because I was all alone out there on this farm. And I just wanted to tear the screen open and jump in there. You know, I just felt like, this is for me, I don’t know why, but I just have lit up by it. And certain genres and music. Actually, I could feel things in my body. And I just knew I had to be part of this somehow. So, I was always following that trail. And, you know, thought all along, there must be some kind of algorithm, we could call it today, some kind of patterns or a way people have of creating these magnificent experiences for me, you know, that just thrilled me so much. Especially the mythological stuff, the adventure stuff, that science fiction, all those imaginative things really lit me up. And so, I followed a trail, I went to journalism school, first at University of Missouri and then went into ROTC during the Vietnam War, and just sort of spun the wheel of fortune. And they sent me out to LA to work on doing documentary films for the Air Force for the space program, and the Space and Missile and, you know, super-secret technology and you know, really cool stuff. And so, it was a good way to get out of Missouri and out to the West Coast. And then that led to go into the GI Bill, I went to the USC film school. And that’s where I started looking hard for this algorithm, you know, for the pattern, how do they construct these things, and there really wasn’t anything. I mean, there were very few screenwriting books at all. And they didn’t really talk about the theory of the thing. It was more about how to format it and, you know, basic stuff. So, I was in a class and I saw a weird film called ‘The Boy with green hair’. And I said to the professor, there’s something kind of mythic about it. I don’t know what it is. And he said; Well, if you’re interested in that, then go to the library and get this book, ‘The Hero with 1000 faces’ by Joseph Campbell. So, I got it and you know, sort of flipped through the bus on the way home. And by the time I got home, I was like, oh, that’s what I was looking for. So, that really blew my mind open and gave me… the thing I was looking for is like, how does it work? What is the kind of inner tic toc of it? How does it relate to human psychology? How does it manifest in the body, all these things I’ve been wondering about? And then I also was lucky in that film school environment, to hear about this thing, reading scripts for a living, and that there was a story department, that there was a world of analyzing, and helping the studio’s shape the things and all of that. And that seemed to work for me too. So, I follow that trail, got into working at the studios at Fox, and eventually at Disney, and had a good career doing that, and sort of ladder my way up, and branded myself through this hero’s journey thing that I had gotten from Campbell. And the main turning point was at the time they were developing Lion King at Disney, I formulated it into a memo form because that’s how they communicate. That’s how Jeffrey Katzenberg and the other executives put out these dictates, they would sort of get this big megaphone, and [Mimics voice] ‘this is how it shall be’. And they were famous for that. So, I put it in that form, and said, there’s this thing, the Hero’s journey, Campbell talked about it. And I think there’s something here for film for telling commercial stories. And that thing went viral before there was any internet. I mean, this is the time of Xerox machines and fax machines. So, I saw there was something there, and that it really went all around Hollywood very quickly. And everybody was buzzing about it. And every studio, it was like required reading. So that was the foundation. And then I worked on it over the years adding more bits and pieces to this pattern that Campbell had described and translating it into the language of movies. Because he wasn’t thinking about movies at all.

Ashley: Yeah. So, a couple things, and this is sort of just like housekeeping. I’m just I think I read the original version. You know, mythic structure for storytellers and screenwriters, I noticed now it’s called Mythic structure for writers. Just for people like me, is there any real substantial difference between the two versions?

Christopher: I just think, you know, we’ve gone out four times now. We have those four editions. And each time, I have first responded to the impact and how it echoed back to me because I got on the road and I started travelling to Europe and bouncing it off with the Korea, different places and, you know, bounce it off these other cultures and found the feedback. Was; Hollywood is great, we love it. We’re going to copy everything you guys do, but we have our own thing. And that was great for me to see that. So, I sort of farmed and ploughed all that back into the succeeding editions. And I also went deeper on some things and developed some other things that I thought needed to be in the toolkit. You know, because in the original edition, it was really two big tools. One was the hero’s journey with the 12 stages that I had arrived at, boiled down from about 16 at Campbell has, and then 8 archetype. And so, I added to that in the other things, important principles, like you need to know about polarity that every story is polarized. Every scene is polarized, every actor, mood, every piece of the thing is split somehow between competing forces. And that’s where the drama comes from. So that’s a whole discussion, polarity. Catharsis, how you get people to cough up their emotions, and, you know, wear them down and break them down until they can’t resist you anymore. And they cry, or they laugh, or, you know, you get the reaction that you want. So, yeah, so I kept digging.

Ashley: So, a couple things. And again, this is sort of just I’m just always been curious about this. So, this memo, and the description you just described is exactly that description that you sort of hear around Hollywood, you did this seven-page memo at Disney, it got passed around and things, it just it got passed around, so you knew it had legs. But how did you go from a seven-page memo into a published book? Did you know publishers? Did you approach publishers? Like what were those steps like actually turning this in from a seven-page memo that was being handed out for free to an actual book that was being sold?

Christopher: Yeah, okay, this is great, because I’ve never really kind of broken it down what those individual steps were. I think the progression was that I started teaching at UCLA Extension. And so, I had a platform to develop the ideas a little bit more and try some things out, and I realized, okay, you need to add this, and that, to the full expression of it. But the real kick off was, I was invited to speak at a romance writer convention in Orange County. It was the Orange County branch of the RWA – Romance Writers of America, and I went spoke, and that was a great crowd for me. And I had a little pamphlet done up about, by now it was about 10 pages. And I sold 150, you know, and came away with $1,000. And just, you know, wow. And they ate it up, and they went to town with it. And you could see the impact of it in their writing. And they’re sort of industrialized, they have to write a lot, they have to write fast, and it helped them to be more efficient. You know, so I kind of got a kick out of that. And that kind of triggered me to go a little deeper. And then an agent came and took my class and said this is a book, I see this as a book. So, to your question, I prepared under instructions, I prepared a proposal the way you’re supposed to do you know, you put together your prospectus for why this book, and took it to New York and you know, shopped it and got some interest, but it will always hit a ceiling where this is too much Campbell, we’ve already got some Campbell books. We already know all this. It’s too Hollywood. It’s too west coast. It’s too you know, something, too woo-woo, you know too out there. So, I just hit a wall, and I didn’t know what I was going to do. And then blabber mouth friend of mine happened to be sitting on an exercise bike next to the publisher, Michael Wheezy who eventually did publish my book. And my big mouth friend said; Oh, you’re a publisher. Well, I have this friend who has this book, it’s great idea. This guy taken my class and so he knew my stuff. And so, Michael Wheezy approached me. And that was the ticket, that was the lighting of the rocket ship that the book became. So, he had the vision for it. And he said this is exactly what I’m looking for. And he was on the ground floor of sort of self-publishing and ministering to the creative community, especially independent filmmaking community. So, my book fits in well for his brand.

Ashley: Gotcha. You mentioned the hero with 1000 faces. By this time was Syd Field’s screenplay out? Had that started to sort of get into the to some of your thinking?

Christopher: Oh, yeah, that was out there. And I saw Syd speak, I came to love that guy. He was a great man, and wonderful spirit, spiritual guy. And, you know, I was aware of his stuff, and it just kind of stamped me, you know, he was like, that’s right. It endorsed what I was thinking. And I felt like it was a natural progression. He have laid out this sort of railroad track. And then I came and bent it around into a circle is basically what happened. I took the Syd Field structure and made it a circle the way Campbell does, and it’s exactly the same structure. But it has a different property when you see it that way as a cycle.

Ashley: I mean, it sounds like just the way your mind works. You’re just constantly analyzing things. So, by the time you read to Hero with 1000 faces, you already had a lot of this, you sort of thought through some of this stuff yourself. And I wonder, do you think you would have basically gotten to the same place without that book? Did you need that book to get to where you ultimately got? Or do you think you would have eventually gotten there without it?

Christopher: I think I might have gotten there without it, it certainly was a great booster. And, you know, again, it’s punched my ticket and endorsed my way of thinking. The way I saw it was, I had already glimpsed a gigantic being monster, dragon, whatever you want to call it, in the woods. But I could only see like a little of the head and one flipped and a little bit of a tail. And so, I knew stories have these certain patterns that they always kind of begin a way where the hero is in trouble and does something nice, so you like him. And, you know, there were things that recurred. But Campbell had seen the same beast in the forest. But I think he had a little higher view or better view of it, he was better educated than I am and was in the right place at the right time to really get it. And so, it just made me go, Okay, there’s something there, there’s something gigantic there. Let’s try and describe it from where I’m standing. You know, and that’s how I feel about everybody else who gets excited about this stuff, is, you know, you’re telling your version of it from where you see it and where you’re standing. And I can see from your imprint and on your blog, and so forth, that you have an angle and certain things that you’ve observed that are helpful to people, you know, that’s where I’m lit up, is if I can help somebody in their life too, not just in movies.

Ashley: Yeah. So, one thing you Syd Field, Blake Snyder, yourself, you know, one of the sort of the criticisms that you get is that it’s too formulaic. And it sort of creates a template. And we’ve definitely all seen those movies that it feels like they started at the wrong end, you know, they started with your template, and they tried to squeeze something into it, as opposed to going the other direction, what is your response to that criticism?

Christopher: You know, I just have come across this idea all over again, that there is an organic way to grow a story. And when you work in the genre, you get off on the wrong track, where you are trying to honor the things you think are supposed to be in that structure of that particular genre. But the trick is, if you took all the genre elements out of it, the Western wouldn’t have a cowboy and wouldn’t have a horse, that it wouldn’t have gun, that wouldn’t have a town and so forth, it would still be a good story. That’s the idea behind this, I think is that you want to try and build from the characters and their problems and their history, rather than there’s this great new device and it’s going to revolutionize the whole society, and then we’ll find some characters who will represent that, but that’s the wrong way around. So, it’s hard, that’s not an easy thing, to set aside all that stuff for a while you think about who’s this poor guy? And what’s his problem? And usually, they go to, he ignores his daughter, and he doesn’t take her to the birthday party, or he doesn’t show up when he’s supposed to for the game or something like that. That kind of like, check the box. But you hope you find something a little deeper or something from yourself from your own life. That’s probably where you’re going to get the best of that kind of human material.

Ashley: Yeah, yeah. So just how should this this book fit in? Someone’s a new screenwriter, they’re just getting into this, how do you see your book sort of fitting into their education? And how should they use your book as they progress?

Christopher: Yeah, I think this is a good introduction in a way, it’s pretty relatively high level, because there are a lot of books that are simpler, and that talk to you more like; Hey, buddy, look, you got to do this. And, you know, if you want to get the audience, you got to grab them, and that’s fine. And everybody needs that. And I got it. In film school, we had teachers who were like that, who were just like; hey, you got to knock the audience on their ass. And I’m glad to have that. But this is coming in a little bit more sophisticated level, but apparently, it can be taught to kids and they can get quite a lot out of the text. So, it’s not that threatening, you know? But I think what would be great is to start with something likes Syd Field, like Linda Seeger’s books. My colleague, Michael Haig has some really good books that look at both the psychological and the sort of structural problems you have. And then if you want go to this other level of mythology. Now, some people are already there, and so they look at this going, oh, yeah, I know all that. That really sounds right to me, because they sort of grew up that way. But I think it does work well, to build on top of something else, a were basic thing.

Ashley: Gotcha. So, are there some things in your book that maybe get overemphasized? And then the flip side of that, are there some things that you think are really important in your book that don’t get talked about as much as maybe you think they should be?

Christopher: Yeah, well, you know, anything that’s out there for a while, and that, especially, it’s something that people have an affection for, or they like it, or its popular in a way, there are going to be people who are gunning for that to, if everybody likes it, I must be against it is a school of criticism. So, I get parked in a box as this is a reductive, that’s a term they like to use the academics. This is watered down Campbell, the guy doesn’t use any footnotes. It’s not academic. You know, he is generalizing all over the place. And it puts the poor writer in a box. And I’ve run into that one from almost day one, that there is this resistance for some people that don’t tell me how to do it, this comes out of the raw material of my soul, and they’re not wrong. That’s something that on the other side, where you’re asking, what isn’t emphasized is that I just beat that to death is like, this is a great tool for you. But at some point, throw the damn tool away. And right from your guts and forget about all this stuff. It’s a map that you consult, before you set out on the journey, and that you check again, if you get lost, and the rest of the time, you’re freewheeling and you’re on your own. And that’s where the creative person should be.

Ashley: Gotcha. So, let’s dig into some of this some with archetypes. You list a whole bunch of them. Are there some films that like just… so just to start out, like with something like these archetypes, what happens if the story doesn’t have most of these are some of these, what can happen to the story? What do you see happening to story, if there’s sort of not getting some of these archetypes in there?

Christopher: Well, it isn’t very common that the archetypes aren’t present somehow. I mean, it’s kind of unusual when they are, but it’s refreshing. Because we are sort of programmed to digest these things a certain way, with certain condiments and additives that we’ve come to like. But the one that seems to be the most fun to play with, to subtract it from the design is the mentor. And I’ve been busted a lot by academics and critics, who say; Well, I see every hero has to have a mentor, this guy says. I don’t, you know, it’s something that is very strong in the audience, that they expect somebody to be wiser and older, and they’re looking around for a character to do that role. Or be the bearer of the magic or whatever it is. But it’s a really interesting design when you take that out, and there isn’t anybody for the hero. And a great example of that was an Academy Award winning film, called Amour by a filmmaker, Michael Haneke, who’s very edgy and makes you nervous. And he made the story about two old people and the wife is losing our mind and is slowly dying. But you know, it’s causing all kinds of problems. And the hero looks around, the husband looks around for a doctor or a relative or somebody and you keep waiting when is that somebody’s going to come and help him. And that’s the joke. There isn’t anybody. He’s completely along with it. And that’s horrifying. You know, it really was a great love story, and yet a horror story at the same time. That position that guy was in, so that was one where I really went okay, I see what happens when you take one of these pieces out. It makes it very interesting tension. I mean, because that’s a general rule for all of these things that people complain I’m putting him in a cage or something. My basic rule is, you have to know all this stuff, you have to know the patterns that people expect, especially in the genres. But you are obligated to break the pattern somehow in everything you do, you know, and you could almost take it down to the level of every scene. And I love filmmakers who do that. Who keep going around corners that I didn’t see coming, I didn’t even see the corner coming, let alone what’s around the corners.

Ashley: And clearly, that example you gave the writer acknowledges this mentor character, because it sounds like that was key to the entire story was trying to find this mentor character. Clearly, he understood that that was like a human thing, a very natural human thing to do. So, there was an acknowledgement even though he didn’t actually find it.

Christopher: Yeah, that is the part where I feel these things are sort of baked in or built into the way we think. And so, people who try to fight against structure, or this kind of poetry that I think the mythological stuff is, they’re really fighting a foolish fight. Because all you can do is be against it, you know, and say; well, no. Instead of all this stream of stuff that saying, yes, there is a pattern, and it’s what we want, we want to be told that there needs something, the life is meaningful. But there should be room for the artists who say; No, and you can even make commercial successes with stories that say, you know, horror films basically that say; No, it’s not like you think, there isn’t any meaning.

Ashley: And so, let’s dig into the stages of the journey, like we did there with the archetypes. Because I think this is a little bit more where if you remove a key piece of the structure, the thing could start to buckle under the weight, as opposed to you could clearly have a story that didn’t require all the archetypes. So, talk about that a little bit. You know, what happens if somebody misses, you know, the refusal of the call. What happens in your story, if you miss one of these things that you found to be integral to these stories?

Christopher: Yeah, you know, it’s something I struggle with when we were working on Lion King, because I thought some pieces of that structure were technically in the wrong places, you know, and yet, you can’t deny the success. It was at the time the most successful animated film ever made. And still, you know, as a record breaker, so they did something right, or we did something right, because I was part of that team, and made my small contribution. But I criticized it, you know, because some things I thought could have been a little better. That’s all.

Ashley: And what’s an example? Like, what’s an example of where you thought the structure maybe was a little off?

Christopher: Well, first of all, they introduced into the first act, a really spooky place. And this was this sort of boneyard where the jackals lived, and where the young lion hero was in danger, and you know, threat. And my just instinctive feeling was that belongs in the second act, that belongs deep into the story. And it was sort of the wrong color, from my point of view for the first act. And there was a lot of other stuff going on there, too. That was enough for me. And then the other thing was, in the middle of the story, they did a transition to show the ageing of the lion of the young lion Simba that he was walking across a log, and they just did a dissolve that showed him young cub, no mane. And then he’s got the big lion mane. And, you know, it’s a neat visual way to do it and it makes it memorable image. But I just wanted more there. I just felt like that transition, there was something missing in him even biologically from the point of view of the African animals. He was with these comical characters who were great and very memorable. But they were telling him we’re going to live on bugs, and a lion cannot live on books and he has to learn to hunt. And he would have encountered you know, I wanted him to encounter hippo or rhino or something or be attacked by something. And eventually he was, his old girlfriend shows up and they have a tussle before they realized who they are. But, again, I just wanted more there and felt a little bit cheated like they could have gotten another $15 million if they had done that little note.

Ashley: So, you’ve spent a lifetime studying this stuff. You’re as well versed in these archetypes at this point probably has anybody on the planet Earth. Do you ever see a movie where you say, Wow, that maybe there’s an additional archetype? Is there ever anything that kind of surprises you? And will you have an example of that?

Christopher: Oh, I’m enjoying this whole genre right now of sort of English tea cup movies that deal with, like Downton Abbey, and the follow ups of that all these Julian fellow show that shows that are coming out now. The Gilded Age is the American version of this. And I enjoy that because they carve off sort of pieces off the archetypes and really make a strong impression around certain ones. Like the old granny who’s conservative, and she represents the dying old ways, and she’s kind of funny, and so forth, that that’s become kind of an archetype. And therefore, something that you can play with and you can reference it and, you know, it becomes part of the language. So, I enjoy picking up things like that.

Ashley: And what about the unstructured too? Is there any ever a movie you watch and say, wow, they did not follow any of this hero’s journey stuff, but they did make it work. Are there any examples of that, that you run into?

Christopher: Yeah, you know, I like being confronted with something that’s sort of chaotic, and was designed with a different template completely. And yet, almost always, you can find some places where they’re marching in step with this hero’s journey pattern. The one that comes to mind is a very weird Japanese film called Hauso or House. And it’s a horror film, about some girls who go to see, one of the girls has an odd two lives out in the woods somewhere, and the aunt is a witch and there’s an enchanted cat and a piano that tries to eat you when you play it and the teeth turn into teeth and start to chew you up. And, you know, it’s semi pornographic, and completely surreal, and doesn’t follow any rules of logic. And it’s absolutely wonderful. You know, so that’s one where you try to put these tools on it, and well, they did leaves and they went somewhere, and something happened. So, you could match it up there. But other than that, it’s up for grabs.

Ashley: Gotcha. Gotcha. And I just like to use the end these interviews by asking you and we kind of covered this here just a little bit. But are there some things that you’ve seen recently, HBO, Netflix, Hulu, anything out that you thought; wow, this would be really great for screenwriters to really look at with a critical eye?

Christopher: Well, one of the shows that we’re enjoying is The Great, which is about Catherine the Great, and this is follows the sort of fanciful version of her younger days. I just think it’s a great modern model of how to have a look at history. And they’re plucking things from the real story. And it’s delightful if you know any history because you can see oh, yeah, that really did happen. And there’s a character I read about him. But other than that, they don’t care. They’re just to tell the funniest and wildest story they can. And so, I’m just going to hanging on for that ride. So, that’s one that really…

Ashley: Gotcha. Where is that playing?

Christopher: That one, I believe I’m seeing that on Hulu. I think so. I have trouble…

Ashley: Yeah, you’re facing problem on that. So, how can people find your book? It’s available everywhere books are sold Amazon, all that sort of stuff?

Christopher: Yes, it is. It’s not hard to find that one. And you know, if you want you can even reach back and get the older editions. The earliest one is the sort of handiest because it’s smaller, it got bigger as it went. And one other thing I did was I added illustrations to the later editions. I commissioned an artist to do beautiful illustrations and they’re just great things to meditate on. I’m going to do a set of cards, storytelling cards based on that and I think that’ll be a nice thing for people to work with in their storytelling.

Ashley: Are you teaching any seminars, webinars, anything coming up?

Christopher: Yeah, every once in a while. There’s nothing scheduled at this time. But I do keep up with a fair amount of that. And I’m enjoying this format. I like working this way. That’s great for me. I missed the travel. I was travelling a lot to Europe three, four or five times a year, and that’s gone. So, we’re going to get back to that.

Ashley: Yeah, yeah. And what’s the best way for people to keep up with you? Website, Twitter, Facebook, anything you’re comfortable sharing, I will round up for the show notes.

Christopher: Yeah, best thing is Yeah, it’s

Ashley: Yeah, we’ll get that for the show notes and it’s your own blog, basically.

Christopher: That’s right. Yeah.

Ashley: Perfect. Well, Chris, I really appreciate you taking some time out to come and talk with me. Fascinating interview. I really do appreciate it.

Christopher: Yeah, great. I love your energy. You got me all worked up and go do something.

Ashley: Perfect. Thank you. Well, take it easy. We’ll talk to you later.

Christopher: All right, nice.

SYS from concept to completion screenwriting course is now available, just go to It will take you through every part of writing a screenplay, coming up with a concept outlining, writing the opening pages, the first act, second act, third act and then rewriting and then there’s even a module at the end on marketing your screenplay once it’s polished and ready to be sent out. We’re offering this course in two different versions. The first version, you get the course. Plus, you get three analyses from an SYS reader, you’ll get one analysis on your outline, and then you’ll get to analyses on your first draft of your screenplay. This is just our introductory price, you’re getting three full analyses, which is actually the same price as our three-pack analysis bundle. So, you’re essentially getting the course for free when you buy the three analyses that come with it. And to be clear, you’re getting our full analysis with this package. The other version doesn’t have the analysis, so you’ll have to find some friends or colleagues who will do the feedback portion of the course with you. I’m letting SYS Select members do this version of the course for free. So, if you’re a member of SYS Select, you already have access to it. You also might consider that as an option. If you join SYS Select, you will get the course as part of that membership too. A big piece of this course is accountability. Once you start the course, you’ll get an email every Sunday with that week’s assignment. And if you don’t complete it, we’ll follow up with another reminder the next week. It is easy to pause the course if you need to take some time off, but as long as you’re enrolled, you’ll continue to get reminders for each section until it’s completed. The objective of the course is to get you through it in six months, so that you have a completed power screenplay ready to be sent out. So, if you have an idea for a screenplay, and you’re having a hard time getting a done, this course might be exactly what you need. If this sounds like something you’d like to learn more about, just go to It’s all one word, all lowercase. I will of course a link to the course in the show notes and I will put a link to the course on the homepage up in the right-hand sidebar.

On the next episode of the podcast, I’m going to be interviewing actor, writer, director and producer Dan Coplan. He just wrote, directed, produced and starred in a new feature film called Eight Wins. It’s a sort of international spy espionage story, but it’s still quite low budget. So, we talk about this project a good bit how he was able to get it all together. And specifically, we talk about how you can write something and ultimately produce something that is low budget, but still feels like a big international spy film. So, keep an eye out for that episode next week. That’s our show. Thank you for listening.