This is a transcript of SYS 481 – The Fine Art Of Filmmaking With Welby Ings.
Welcome to Episode 481 of the Selling Your Screenplay Podcast. I’m Ashley Scott Meyers, screenwriter and blogger with sellingyourscreenplay.com. Today I am interviewing filmmaker Welby Ings who just did an LGBTQ boxing drama, comes on this week to talk about his journey working in the business and moving up to the point where he’s now writing and directing this feature film. So, stay tuned for that interview. SYS’s six-figure screenplay contest is open for submissions just go to www.sellingyourscreenplay.com/contest. Our regular deadline is May 31st. If your script is ready, definitely submit now to save some money. We’re looking for low budget shorts and features. Defining low budget as less than six figures. In other words, less than 1 million US dollars. We’ve got lots of industry judges reading scripts in the later rounds, we’re giving away 1000s in cash and prizes. I had the winner from 2020, Richard Pearce on the podcast in Episode 378, he won the contest, was introduced to one of our industry judges, Ted Campbell, who took the script to Marvista Entertainment and got the film produced over there. So again, if you want to hear his story, definitely check out that episode is number 378. We’ve had a number of options to sales from the contest in addition to this one. So again, it’s just our fourth year, so we are getting some nice traction with the scripts. There’s always lots of producers who are looking for high-quality low-budget films. So hopefully we’re tapping into some of that we have a short film category as well; 30 pages or less. If you have a low budget short script, by all means consider submitting that as well. I do have a number of industry judges who are specifically looking to produce some short scripts, so hopefully you can find a home for some of those as well. If you do want to submit again, just go to sellingyourscreenplay.com/contest.
If you find this episode valuable, please help me out and give me a review in iTunes or leaving a comment on YouTube or retweeting the podcast on Twitter or liking or sharing it on Facebook. These social media shares really do help spread word about the podcast, so they’re very much appreciated. Any websites or links that I mentioned in the podcast can be found on my blog in the show notes. I also publish a transcript with every episode in case you’d rather read the show or look at something later on. You can find all the podcast show notes at www.sellingyourscreenplay.com/podcast and then just look for episode number 481. If you want my free guide How to Sell a Screenplay in five weeks, you can pick that up by going to sellingyourscreenplay.com/guide. It’s completely free. Just put in your email address and I’ll send you a new lesson once per week for five weeks along with a bunch of bonus lessons. I teach the whole process of how to sell your screenplay in that guide. I’ll teach you how to write a professional logline and query letter and how to find agents managers and producers who are looking for material. Really is everything you need to know to sell your screenplay just go to sellingyourscreenplay.com/guide. So now let’s get into the main segment. Today I am interviewing a filmmaker Welby Ings, here is the interview.
Ashley
Welcome Welby to the Selling Your Screenplay Podcast. I really appreciate you coming on the show with me today.
Welby Ings
Thank you. Thank you for having me, Ashley.
Ashley
So, to start out, maybe you can tell us a little bit about your background where you grew up. And how did you get interested in the entertainment business?
Welby Ings
So, I grew up in, I don’t know if that in the States used to term the sticks. I grew up in a very remote farming area.
Ashley
Yeah, we do use that. There are people growing up in the sticks over here, too.
Welby Ings
Alright, well, there we go. So, and my father used to build fences and shear sheep for a job. And so sometimes in the offseason, we didn’t have electricity in our home. But it was a great family and my twin sister and my next sister grew up to be lesbians. So. the three eldest, I’m not sure what was in the water at [Inaudible – 03:50], but it was queer. So, that I couldn’t read. I was very considered very slow at school because I couldn’t read or write. But I had a very, I think the term was overactive imagination. And fortunately, at home, my parents never treated me as stupid because I couldn’t read or write. So, I just used to build forts out of sheep’s skeletons that were puppets that moved in them. And I used to tell stories, and my dad was a country and western singer, and he used to make up songs. And he used to tell it stories like these monologues that would make you ball, you know. And so, I actually had an amazing education that was based around storytelling, not at school. It was my education outside of school, but because I couldn’t read or write when we had to do compulsory reading. I used to just draw pictures. And so, my screenplays actually only a second step. My first step is to go into the places where I think the story happens and draw and I write notes over them. And there are literally hundreds of drawings. And I just cover my wall with the drawings and then so I live with the dimension of the film. And then I change its arcs by, you know, taking drawings off, but going, I need to go out there and find that. And so, it becomes like a huge kind of graphic of the story. And so sometimes there are cul-de-secs you know, and they just get pulled off an end. And I also I make the props for the film. And that’s a way of me beginning to understand characters more deeply. And so, I only write, turn that into a written screenplay when I have to go for funding.
Ashley
So that’s fascinating. I’ve interviewed a lot of screenwriters at this point. And that seems like a very unique method is really starting on things. So, at what point and maybe we’ll get into this later, maybe we’ll stick to just some of the preliminary things you’ve done. Let’s talk about some of the shorts you’ve done. I noticed on IMDb, you have a number of shorts, which you’ve written and directed. Just talk about those a little bit. How did you get funding for those? How did you produce those? How did you have the competence? It sounds like you were not great academically so you probably didn’t get the film degree and these sorts of things? How did you get the experience just going out there doing the shorts and the just the competence to go out and do it?
Welby Ings
Yeah, so I didn’t go to film school. And eventually, I learned to read and write. And now I’m a professor in narrative design. And I write books and screenplays and all that stuff. But, you know, we learned to read and write in different ways at different times, I don’t think it has very much to do with intelligence at all. But all of my films are very, very visually driven. So boy, which was the first short film I did had no spoken language in it at all. But it had typography is thought that would flicker and I designed typefaces inside the film. So of course, when I went for funding, people kind of threw their hands up and went, That’s not a short film. And you go, what is it? And they go, well, I don’t know what the fuck it is, but it isn’t a short film. And so, I just saved up some money. And I made it. And then it, I mean, it was Oscar qualified, won a whole lot of awards overseas, it just went crazy. But it was made on not even the smell of an oily rag, you know, but it had a really strong believer in this had had a vision behind it, it had an absolute vision. And behind that was the idea of what would it be, to not be able to speak about your life in the world when something terrible was happening. And so that was a 15-minute short film. And then off the back of that, when it had done so well, I thought, well, maybe I can get funding now. And I wrote a film called Munted. And that was drawn and then transferred into a screenplay. And again, I couldn’t get funding. And I actually find it quite difficult to go out and get funding because I’m not a very public, man, I find it really difficult to pitch things to strangers, you know, people I don’t know. Because films are my personal. And so, I admire people who can do it. But so, in the end, I’ve got an award from the government for, like, my achievements as a profession, and I thought, I’m going to use that to fund my film. So, I said to them, can I spend this on my film? And bless them, and they said; Yes, that’s all right. So, there was a prime minister’s award. So, it was enough to make the film and I made it and they wouldn’t screen it in the New Zealand Film Festival, but it won a number of international awards. And then I thought, Oh, well, I’ll I really, I had by that stage, I had this idea for a feature that I really wanted to make. And originally it was called Flight, it became Punch. I pitched that and they went nuts to strange and nobody really wants to see a film about, you know, gay boxer in a small town. And so, I made Sparrow. And so, Sparrow was a test run really for punch, but it’s set to three decades earlier. And actually, there’s a photograph, you see, there’s a photograph of the boy’s grandfather in Sparrow, every film I make there a prop from the film before that appear in the next film. There’s just a little car and you always use one actor I always use who was the nurse in punch she has been in every film I make because she lives down where I grew up, and I always try and make a space for her in the filmmaking so that she gets some support, you know, and she’s very fine actor. So, and then then Sparrow, so they would still wouldn’t screen in the New Zealand film festival but Sparrow did incredibly well overseas. I think it was about 80 official selections or something. It was pretty crazy and then by that stage, I was still going to the film commission trying to get Punch funded. And, and then the producers said, I’d read, I turned the drawings into a screenplay. And it was unusual, like, I got a lot of feedback that’s going to fit screenplay is very poetic. But that’s what the film is. It’s an image lead. It’s got a poetry of the image in it. But it still got a really clear narrative arc. And so, they sent it to an agent in London, who looked at and said, I’d like to give this to Tim Roth. And, and the next thing I know, the agencies are, we’re setting up a Zoom meeting with you and Tim Roth.
Ashley
Hmm. So just back that story up a little bit, though, how did the screenplay get into Tim Ross hands?
Welby Ings
The producers sent it. Because it was so unusual, it was having trouble getting traction here, they sent it to a couple of agents of actors. And although and there’s only one role in it, that was real, that I’d written an adult role that was really quite in depth. And that was the alcoholic dad. And so they sent it to the stage, I don’t know if this is even what you’re supposed to do, but they sent it to him. And I think they had another actor in mind. And the agent looked at it. And I don’t think the other actor was that interested in it. But he said; can I show it to Tim Roth? And he showed it to Tim and Tim, there’s a few actors like this, I admire them immensely. They’ll do the big films, but they’re actually always on the lookout for stuff that’s a little bit different. And he really related to he could see that the character of Stan was complex, like, I wanted to really dig into a dad who loved his son, but the alcohol was in the middle of it, and the son was gay. And the son was not going to fulfill the dad’s dreams. And I tried to write a really complex character and Tim, like one of the things I love about Tim, as an actor, he’s reductive. In other words, he’ll look at something and go; what could we take away to make it work? And that’s a very design approach to things when we’re designing things. We’ll go, you know, design a house or something and you go, it’s not quite working, rather than go, what can I add on? You go, what do I need to strip off? So, you get to a kind of essential purity. Yeah. And so, we got on like a house on fire, because creatively were quite similar. And so, it wasn’t a, it certainly I don’t think was the patent that you’re encouraged to do in the normal way. But you know, I always think that a film truly happens because you have tenacity. And you can tell a good story. And you try to make the very best thing you can add near every level, which includes a screenplay and whatever device you use to get a good story, then that’s the… you have to find the purest way you can to construct a story that may not follow everybody’s pattern. The measure of it will be does this move people’s hearts, does this work as a story to be told in pictures? You know, what is this in the realm beyond words?
Ashley
Yeah, yeah. So maybe this is a good time to maybe you can give us a quick pitch or logline for Punch and then we can really dig into it. What is this story all about? Do you have a little logline for it?
Welby Ings
Yeah, a logline was actually in the end. Because I find loglines really difficult. Because, you know, when I put a picture together, so it’s like a matrix of intersecting webs. But I mean, the way I always thought about it was love between men because it’s a film about masculinity and love. But that’s not going to work as a logline. So, I forget, I think they put in something like fight to love and I hated that because it’s not the … loglines, sometimes too reductive they feel like pictures rather than the essence of something. So, I’m not sure what the final logline was for it.
Ashley
Gotcha. So where did this idea come from? Maybe we start there. Where was sort of the genesis of this idea for you?
Welby Ings
My partner died. My partner was a very successful, he grew up in a boxing family, his dad was a boxing coach. And he coached his sons. He wanted his sons to be great boxers. And Kevin was a good boxer. But he walked away his dad’s regime was so tough and controlling, he walked away from it. And he held the national title in the triple jump, he went to UCLA. And it came back to New Zealand, and then he coached the women’s sprinters in New Zealand and LD Catholics. And that’s when I met him. And when he was, his dad never forgave him, basically, and then, because Kevin had come out as gay, that was more difficult for his dad, like dad didn’t like me very much at all. And then Kevin was, became HIV positive and then developed full blown AIDS. And when I couldn’t look after him anymore in our home, we had to go to the hospice, and his dad found him. And he came, and he came to see him when Kevin didn’t want to see him. And so, his dad set for about three hours in the lounge. And in the end, Kevin said; all right, and his dad came in and he couldn’t touch him. He couldn’t touch we just sat by the edge of the bed, and it just tears rolling down his cheeks and the left.
Ashley
It’s heartbreaking.
Welby Ings
Yeah, there has to be, you know, we’re all flawed. We’re all flawed. His dad was a good man. But he’d grown up in a different world. And Kevin was a good man, neither of those people were being bad, then I just thought, they have to be tender ways of talking about love between men. And that mean, you know, like relationship between a dad and his son. And so, it came from a very felt place. And I tried to make a film that stayed. It wasn’t biographical. But it was trying to stay true to the human can the best of the human condition that I could get, so it wouldn’t shy away from difficult things. But it would also use beauty, they would use things like beauty to lift the resonance up. And so, where we shot it, that was all where Kevin used to train. So, he used to train on those sand dunes, he used to train in the water. So, I approach storytelling with embodiment. I go as a writer director, I try and live in those worlds, but I used to sleep out there at night sometimes. And on one level, it helps you get the resonance of the story but it also unwittingly you’re knowing how light behaves, you will know how, when the tides come in how you understand because the land is a character in the film. So, the screenplay is not just about these people, it’s about the world in which they live. So, I come to know by being as embodied as I can I make most of the props. My house here was full of three fictional characters for about five years. You know, okay, all boxing cups, all the golden boxing gloves, all of fittings kit air that he hangs on the wall, you know, all that stuff was populated. So, I was buried inside. So, when the screenplay, that’s why I love the word screenplay more than script because screenplay may interest suggest something more than the written words on a printout. It’s the it’s the thing that sits behind that. And when you write and direct those two things have got to be quite rich.
Ashley
Yeah, yeah. So, let’s just dig into your writing process a little bit. And we talked specifically about Punch. But what is your writing schedule look like? Do you write in the morning? Do you write at night? Do you have a home office? Do you go to Starbucks for that ambient noise? Just what is your process look like?
Welby Ings
So, I draw, then most of my writing occurs on my drawings. And then I pin those up all around the walls. And I walk past, I stand, I walk past or move things around. And so, the story is talking to me in pictures. And then once I’ve kind of got an arc right, once I think I’ve got the act kind of moving out, I’m not a 3 acts guy, I’m not a 3 act play guy, but I try to avoid slumps. That’s my big battle. Just try and avoid slumps because they’re trying to get continuity. Because I see film is talking pictures. My writing process is easier if I stay with pictures and then I pull that down when it comes time to write a screenplay that gets written in about four days. And I this isn’t going to help but I often don’t sleep because I try to hold the continuity as much as I can together. So, I don’t necessarily start the first scene. I’ll start at a scene that is a punk, is a not a climax, but an important scene, and then I will write out away from it and right before it, and then I’ll have a look at then I’ll put in that script up on the wall, and we need the drawings. And so I don’t want to have a structure that I’ve created, like the architecture I know. And it’s often in the diagram, I write by the bits that that are meant to hit your heart. And so, then I can build up to those and fall away from those in useful ways. So, I have a concept of the whole film not as a linear thing, but as a kind of like a holistic.
Ashley
And how good of an artist are you? I just, I’m curious, can you draw pretty well? And what’s on these things? Because it sounds very similar to the index card method, except you’re adding sort of a visual element of actually drawing but do you write like little bits of dialogue? Do you write little like the important the purpose of the scene, like what’s actually on these things? Or is it just purely visual?
Welby Ings
Alright, there’s actually a few of these because I’ve written there’s a couple of articles in journals now about the process. So, they’re very pictorial. They’re very, I’m only paint them in coffee, just coffee grounds, and pencil and ink, because it’s got to be stuff that I can carry in my pack out when I’m going somewhere. So, they’re on bits of scrap paper, but they are very, very pictorial they’ve normally put to a drawing together about 30 minutes, and it allows me to dwell in that place. And then while I’m drawing, I will write little flickers of what I hear. And sometimes it’s a bit of poetry. But I will write what the land, what that place we’re building is saying to me. And so, it’s not like sometimes it’s a little flickers of dialogue, mainly, though it’s internal thinking of the person. And then when it comes to turning that to script, I turn that into external dialogue. And it may just be one line that it all leads to.
Ashley
So, and I apologize, we’re running short on time. So, we just have to wrap it up. But this is fascinating. Your process really is fascinating. Just how can people see Punch? You know what the release schedule is going to be like?
Welby Ings
I think Sam might be able to give you because it’s about to be released very soon. The trailer is up there. If you wanted to look at the images. If you send me an email, I can send you some through a PDF to show you some what they look like.
Ashley
Yeah, yeah, I think and yeah, we’ll try and include that with our podcasts. That would be fantastic. I’ll reach out to Sam. Yeah. And I’ll try and get that. Yeah, we’ll get some of the times and the dates and stuff when it’s going to be playing. What’s the best way for people to keep up with what you’re doing? Twitter, Facebook, a blog, website, anything you’re comfortable sharing, I will wrap up and put in the show notes.
Welby Ings
I’m really sorry. I’m such a private guy.
Ashley
It sounds like your IMDB page. We’ll link to that people can come so will be… I really appreciate your time today. Your true artists. This was really a fascinating interview just hearing about your process. Good luck with this film and good luck while your future films as well.
Welby Ings
Great stuff you’re doing, mate.
Ashley
Thank you. Thank you. We’ll talk to you later.
Welby Ings
See you later. Bye.
SYS is from concept to completion, screenwriting course is now available, just go to www.sellingyourscreenplay.com/screenwritingcourse, it will take you through every part of writing a screenplay, coming up with a concept, outlining, writing the opening pages, the first act, second act, third act and then rewriting and then there’s even a module at the end on marketing your screenplay once it’s polished and ready to be sent out. We’re offering this course in two different versions, the first version, you get the course. Plus, you get three analyses from an SYS reader, you’ll get one analysis on your outline, and then you’ll get two analyses on your first draft of your screenplay. This is just our introductory price, you’re getting three full analyses, which is actually the same price as our three-pack analysis bundle. So, you’re essentially getting the course for free when you buy the three analyses that come with it. And to be clear, you’re getting our full analysis with this package. The other version doesn’t have the analysis. So, you’ll have to find some friends or colleagues who will do the feedback portion of the course with you. I’m letting SYS select members do this version of the course for free. So, if you’re a member of SYS select you already have access to it. You also might consider that as an option if you join SYS, you will get the course as part of that membership too. A big piece of this course is accountability. Once you start the course, you’ll get an email every Sunday with that week’s assignment. And if you don’t complete it, we’ll follow up with another reminder the next week. It’s easy to pause the course if you need to take some time off, but as long as you’re enrolled, you’ll continue to get reminders for each section and until it’s completed. The objective of the course is to get you through it in six months so that you have a completed power screenplay ready to be sent out. So, if you have an idea for a screenplay and you’re having a hard time getting it done, this course might be exactly what you need. If this sounds like something you’d like to learn more about, just go to www.sellingyourscreenplay.com/screenwritingcourse. It’s all one word, all lowercase. I will of course a link to the course in the show notes and I will put a link to the course on the homepage up in the right-hand sidebar. On the next episode of the podcast, I’m going to be interviewing filmmaker John Swab who just directed a cool film written by and starring Scott Kohn called One Day as a Lion, a crime thriller feature film. We talked about this film and how it came together for him. It’s got a great cast in addition to Scott Kohn, the film stars JK Simmons, Virginia Madsen, and Frank Grillo. John was on the podcast before in Episode 371 with his film Body Brokers. We talked a bit about how he broke into the business as well as that film Body Broker. So definitely check out that episode if you haven’t already listened to it again, that’s 371. And then next week, we’ll have John back on to talk about his new film One Day as a Lion. So, keep an eye out for that episode next week. That’s the show. Thank you for listening.