This is a transcript of SYS 482 – How To Give Or Take Notes As A Writer/Producer With John Swab .
Welcome to Episode 482 of the Selling Your Screenplay Podcast. I’m Ashley Scott Meyers, screenwriter and blogger but sellingyourscreenplay.com. Today I’m interviewing filmmaker John Swab, who just directed a cool film written by and starring Scott Kohn, called One Day as A Lion. It’s a crime thriller feature film. We talk about this film and how it all came together for him. He’s got a great cast in this film. In addition to Scott Kohn, the film stars JK Simmons, Virginia Madsen, and Frank Grillo. John was on the podcast before and episode 371 for his film Body Brokers. We talked about that film and his how he got to start in the business, so definitely check out that episode, it’s number 371 if you haven’t already checked it out, but today we’re going to be talking about this latest film – One Day as a Lion. So, stay tuned for that interview.
SYS is six figure screenplay contest is open for submissions just go to www.sellingyourscreenplay.com/contest. Our regular deadline is May 31st. So, if your script is ready, definitely submit now to save some money. If you find this episode valuable, please help me out by giving me a review in iTunes or leaving a comment on YouTube or retweeting the podcast on Twitter or liking or sharing it on Facebook. These social media shares really do help spread word about the podcast so they’re very much appreciated. Any websites or links and I mentioned the podcasts can be found on my blog and the show notes. I also publish a transcript with every episode in case you’d rather read the show or look at something later on. You can find all the podcast show notes at www.sellingyourscreenplay.com/podcast and then just look for episode 482. If you want my free guide How to Sell a Screenplay in Five Weeks, you can pick that up by going to sellingyourscreenplay.com/guide. It’s completely free. Just put in your email address and I’ll send you a new lesson once per week for five weeks along with a bunch of bonus lessons. I teach the whole process of how to sell your screenplay in that guide, teach you how to write a professional logline and query letter and how to find agents, managers and producers who are looking for material. Really is everything you need to know to sell your screenplay just go to sellingyourscreenplay.com/guide. So, now let’s get into the main segment. Today I’m interviewing filmmaker John swab. Here is the interview.
Ashley
Welcome John to the Selling Your Screenplay Podcast. I really appreciate you coming on the show with me today.
John Swab
Thanks for having me back, man.
Ashley
So, we chatted over a year ago on the podcast about your film – Body Brokers, and how you got broke into the business. So, I’m going to refer people listening to that episode is number 371. If you want to kind of get a little bit more about your origin story and kind of get up to date. But today we’re going to dig into your latest film – One Day as A Lion. You really put together a great cast for this film, Frank Grillo, JK Simmons, Virginia Madsen and of course Scott Kohn, who wrote the screenplay. So maybe to start out you can just give us a quick pitch or logline. What is this film all about?
John Swab
Jackie Powers, played by Scott Kohn takes a job with a local washed up hitman to get some money together to get his son out of juvenile detention. And the job goes bad and you know, shit hits the fan.
Ashley
So how did you get involved with this project? And what state was the screenplay in when you came on board?
John Swab
Yeah. So, Scott’s agent reached out to Jeremy, who was my manager and producer. And, you know, he was interested in maybe Jeremy producing the movie. Jeremy took a look at the script. He liked it. He talked to Scott, he liked Scott. And somewhere in their conversations, my name came up. And I took a look at the script, read it, enjoyed it, got along with Scott as well. And we kind of were off to the races from there. But you know, the script was about 130 pages or 125 pages when I got it. You know, the shooting script ended up being about 95. So, we shaved off about 25-26 pages. And yeah, so you know, I got in there and here we are.
Ashley
Perfect. And so maybe we can talk about that development a little bit just as a director, and also as a director who’s also done a lot of writing. And obviously Scott is going to be playing the lead. So, it’s a real synergistic relationship. Just how did you go through that? Maybe you can talk about some of the things that you needed to change? It sounds like a lot of cutting, but were there some story things that you thought needed to be changed? And how do you broach those with Scott?
John Swab
Yeah, I mean, you know, for me, I’ve learned the best way forward is straight ahead. And you know, being just upfront and cutting to the chase. And when I read the script, I loved the story. You know, I love the comedy and the lightheartedness to the story. You know, I felt like there were times where we were deviating from that by taking unnecessarily roads and side roads and avenues with characters. And so, my goal was just to further refine what Scott had done, and distill it down to its most His purest and simplest form. And so, you know, having directed scripts that I’ve written, you know, and you do that enough, and you’re able to be objective with your own material. So, when it comes to somebody else’s, you’re able to be extremely objective. And, you know, my goal was just to make Scott’s script the best it could be, and he was receptive to that, and we weren’t there and happy with where it ended up.
Ashley
And I wonder if you can talk about this just as a relationship with a writer, you know, how do you again, as a writer yourself, what do you recommend to writers, when they’re working with a director? I mean, this is a little bit of sort of the opposite problem, I think most writers are going to encounter where they already had a project going, and you sort of came on board, I think, with most writers, you know, they bring their project in there, the producer and the director of sort of maybe upstream as opposed to downstream, just but how do you deal with that? How do you deal with doing giving notes, not necessarily rocking the boat? Is that not your approach? It sounds like this a straightforward approach and if they don’t like my ideas, maybe you’re not a good fit for it, but is there some sort of, you know, middle ground that you find with this, and just in dealing with people and approaching people with things that may be…
John Swab
I don’t think anyone’s situation is the same, you know, for giving notes you kind of got to read the room and understand who you’re dealing with. And when you’re dealing with them, and you know, also, being somebody who’s written my own screenplays and share them with people, I understand how vulnerable that is to share something with somebody, and you know, I’ve gotten criticism that didn’t feel constructive. And you know, it can be jarring, and it can be something that’s not helpful. So, whenever I give a note, or I’m approaching somebody with a change, I never do it with any malice or anything, but trying to get to the best version of whatever we’re working on. So, you know, I may have a note or an idea or a thought that I’m not sure of, and I may mention it, and if like, you know, with me, if I can’t defend a point in my script, then it I probably should change it, you know, if I can’t defend it and convince the person that I’m talking to that might need to be looked at. And so, you know, when I’m approaching somebody like Scott, it’s all out of the idea of collaborating and getting the best out of what he’s brought into me in the script. So, you know, but there’s no one size fits all approach to giving notes to anybody.
Ashley
And so, as Jeremy, it sounds like, it’s being your manager and also producing partner, obviously have a close relationship with Him. What does he have to pitch for you? Like, what are some of the highlights in your career? And I asked this, just, you know, so other writers, other directors can maybe have those same things, when your name does come up in these types of conversations. What does Jeremy have? Do you have a real a director’s reel? Do you have some specific films? What does he do to sort of pitch you to these other folks?
John Swab
Yeah, I mean, you know, I think, again, every situation is different. I mean, one of Jeremy’s greatest strengths is that he can read a situation and understand what it needs, you know, in terms of with a pitch. So, you know, if Scott’s talking about, you know, One Day as A Lion, for instance, and the genre being kind of a little bit of an action set in a western town, and having similar themes to let’s say, in terms of my films I’d read. So, Jeremy, use that as something to reference and something to pitch to him to watch, as opposed to referencing body brokers, which has no elements of One Day as A Lion. So, you know, I think it’s identifying something that’s like, whatever the situation is, identifying something that’s relevant as a reference point. And, you know, luckily, we have a pretty broad spectrum of projects. So, you know, he can refer somebody to look at something that’s very specific to whatever the pitch is.
Ashley
So, you mentioned, also, this script was 125 pages when you first came on board, you got it down to whatever, 95 pages. I run into that a lot running Selling Your Screenplay, running a Screenplay Contest, I see these scripts that are extremely long, 120-30-40 pages. Do you have any tips for writers? How can they cut their material down? How can they go through something that they think is so precious at 120 pages and get that down to 90 pages?
John Swab
Yeah, I mean, the thing I’ve gotten I pride myself in now is self-editing and when I’m writing, you know, however long or process that might be, no matter what I do, before I write that day, I wake up and I read the script from beginning to wherever I’m at, you know, and as I’m reading, I’m editing and, you know, I’m never adding, I usually on my first pass I put every as much in I fill it to the brim and then on my subsequent, you know, read throughs I keep refining and refining, refining. So, I mean, my experience less is more, you know, it’s better to treat the audience as if they’re smarter than you think they are than dumber than you think they are, you know, like to feel smart. They don’t want to feel browbeaten. So, I think always err on the side of less. Because you can always put more in later, you know.
Ashley
Yeah, yeah. And how much of these types of things where you’re cutting a script like this down? How much come from the practical side of things, just the production side of things? Listen, we don’t have the budget for 120 pages, but we do have the budget for 95 pages, how much come that way versus how much comes the creative? And how do you find that balance between the practical considerations versus the creative considerations?
John Swab
Yeah, that’s a good question. And it’s, each scene or note is different for different reasons. One might be purely creative. One might be totally budget. I mean, for instance, in this script, there was like a seven-or-eight page car chase, along a cliff side, you know, where the car is on two wheels and like, over the cliff, and people are screeching tires, and all this kind of stuff. And on one side that’s created, there’s no cliffs in Oklahoma. So, we’re not going to be you know, having a car chase along the side of a cliff. Also, we don’t have the budget or the time to do anything like that. So, it’s kind of twofold. You know, and then there’s other things like pages of dialogue that seem to be, you know, just reiterating points that were already made in the scene, you know, or something, maybe an action will suffice, that action is always better than a word. So, if you can achieve and tell the story via an action versus dialogue, you’re always better off, in my opinion. So, there was quite a few different things that were cut out for different reasons. But again, I’m not disparaging Scott’s script at all. It was great script, I felt like there was a more refined version of it.
Ashley
Gotcha, gotcha. Okay, so once you had this script intact, you had a version that you guys liked, what were those next steps to actually putting this together and getting a greenlit?
John Swab
I mean, from there, you know, it was casting and finding the right alchemy of people. And then from there it was chopping it around and seeing who wanted to finance the thing. And Lionsgate was super excited about it in America and then Universal did the rest of the world. And here we are.
Ashley
What sort of cast did you have on board when you got Lionsgate to greenlight it?
John Swab
It was Scott, J. K, Frank. It was those three,
Ashley
Gotcha, gotcha, so, well, perfect. So, I really appreciate your coming on to talk about this today. I always like to wrap up the interviews just to ask the guests. Is there anything you’ve seen recently that you thought was really great? Netflix, Hulu, anything you’ve been watching recently that a screenwriting audience could get something out of?
John Swab
I mean, I feel like I was late to the party was seeing the movie – Barbarian. I watched that the other night and you know, I didn’t love the movie. I enjoyed it a lot. But the thing that impressed me the most was just the script and how it was written was super unique. And yeah, I learned from that. So, I was a little pleasant surprise. It’s on HBO max. And I highly recommend it. Bill Skarsgard is amazing.
Ashley
Okay, perfect. Perfect. Yeah, that’s a great recommendation. And how can people see One Day as a Lion? What’s the release schedule going to be like for this film?
John Swab
It’ll be out next week in theaters. And then from there, it’ll be on demand, anywhere anytime.
Ashley
Perfect. Perfect. And what’s the best way for people to just keep up with what you’re doing? Twitter, Instagram, Facebook, anything you’re comfortable sharing. I will put in the show notes so people can click over and follow you.
John Swab
I don’t have any social media, but I don’t know. I guess just Google or…
Ashley
IMDB. Yeah, I’ll put your IMDB page. So perfect. Well, John, again, I really appreciate you coming on and talking to me again today. Good luck with this film and good luck. Well, your future films as well.
John Swab
Thank you, Ashley, good to talk to you again, man.
Ashley
You too. Will talk to you later. Bye.
I just want to talk quickly about SYS select. It’s a service for screenwriters to help them sell their screenplays and get writing assignments. The first part of the service is the SYS select screenplay database. Screenwriters upload their screenplays, along with a logline, synopsis and other pertinent information like budget and genre, and then producers search for and hopefully find screenplays they want to produce. Dozens of producers are in the system looking for screenplays, writing now, there have been a number of success stories come out of the service. You can find out about all the SYS select successes by going to sellingyourscreenplay.com/success. Also, on SYS podcast episode 222. I talked with Steve Dearing, who was the first official success story to come out of the SYS select database. When you join SYS select you get access to the screenplay database along with all the other services that we’re providing to SYS select members. These services include the newsletter, this monthly newsletter goes out to a list of over 400 producers who are actively seeking writers and screenplays. Each SYS select member can pitch one screenplay in this monthly newsletter. We also provide screenwriting leads, we have partnered with one of the premier paid screenwriting leads services, so I can syndicate their leads to SYS select members, there are lots of great paid leads coming in each week from our partner. Recently, we’ve been getting 5 to 10 high quality paid leads per week. These leads run the gamut. There are producers looking for a specific type of spec script to producers looking to hire a screenwriter to write up one of their ideas or properties. They’re looking for shorts, features, TV, and web series, pilots, all types of projects. If you sign up for SYS select, you’ll get these leads emailed directly to you several times per week. Also, you get access to the SYS select forum, where we will help you with your logline and query letter and answer any screenwriting related questions that you might have. We also have a number of screenwriting classes that are recorded and available in the SYS select forum. These are all the classes that I’ve done over the years, so you’ll have access to those whenever you want once you join. The classes cover every part of writing your screenplay, from concept, to outlining, to the first act, second act, third act as well as other topics like writing short films, and pitching your projects in person. Once again, if this sounds like something you’d like to learn more about, please go to sellingyourscreenplayselect.com. Again, that is sellingyourscreenplayselect.com. On the next episode of the podcast I’m going to be interviewing John Gaspard who is a book author and also a screenwriter. He’s written a number of fiction books, but has also written two books on filmmaking and screenwriting one is called Fast, Cheap and Under Control, specifically for low budget filmmakers. And the other one is called Fast, Cheap and Written That Way. This is a book specifically for screenwriters, and to help them write screenplays that can be produced on a lower budget. So, he gets a great interview for us here at selling your screenplay, says I’m a big proponent of low budget film indie films. So, he comes on next week talks us through his books and kind of some of the trials and tribulations he’s had with low budget filmmaking, and how his books came together and what lessons he’s learned for a screenwriter. So, keep an eye out for that episode next week. That’s the show. Thank you for listening.