This is a transcript of SYS Podcast Episode 380: With Writer/Director Kerry Mondragon.

Ashley: Welcome to Episode #380 of the Selling Your Screenplay podcast. I’m Ashley Scott Myers, screenwriter and blogger over at Today, I’m interviewing writer director, Kerry Mondragon, who just wrote and directed his first feature film, an adventure romance called Tyger Tyger. He comes on today to tell us how he wrote the script and how he got it produced. So stay tuned for that interview. SYS’s Six-Figure Screenplay contest is open for submissions. Just go to The regular deadline is approaching, it is May 31st, after that it will go up by $10. So if your script is ready, definitely submit now, before the final deadline. We’re looking for low budget shorts and features.

I’m defining low budget as less than six figures. In other words, less than $1,000,000. We’ve got lots of industry judges reading scripts in the later rounds. We’re giving away thousands in cash and prizes. Once again, if this sounds like something you’d like to learn more about or perhaps even enter, just go to If you find this episode valuable, please help me out by giving me a review in iTunes or leaving me a comment on YouTube, or re-tweeting the podcast on Twitter, or liking or sharing it on Facebook. These social media shares really do help spread word about the podcast, so they’re very much appreciated. Any websites or links that I mention in the podcast can be found on my blog in the show notes.

I also publish a transcript with every episode in case you’d rather read the show or look at something later on. You can find all the podcast show notes at and then just look for Episode Number #380. If you want my free guide, How To Sell a Screenplay in Five Weeks, you can pick that up by going to It’s completely free, you just put in your email address and I’ll send you a new lesson once per week for five weeks, along with a bunch of bonus lessons. I teach the whole process of how to sell your screenplay in that guide. I’ll teach you how to write a professional logline and query letter and how to find agents, managers, and producers who are looking for material.

Really it’s everything you need to know to sell your screenplay, just go to So a quick few words about what I’m working on. We’re still having conference calls with distributors on The Rideshare Killer. Right now we’ve talked to a few sales agents who we really like and seem like they might be able to do a good job with the film. So that’s sort of the direction we’re heading. It puts us, a sales agent is kind of just gonna bring you to distributors, but hopefully they’ll have those stronger connections to get you better distributors.

Especially geographically speaking, if your sales agent has some connections in Europe or a specific country, Australia, hopefully they can get better deals that are more country-specific, which can lead to some additional revenue, if we can sell off the individual countries, as opposed to basically just throwing everything up on Amazon Prime or iTunes, which is kind of worldwide and kind of our last, kind of last resort. Obviously we’ll end up there eventually, but we would like to kind of exploit some of these other markets. So that’s kind of our thinking is, is we’re hoping we can find someone that really has relationships with some of these buyers, the kind of people that actually buy movies like The Rideshare Killer.

So we’re going through that process is that we’re vetting some of them, having these conference calls and hopefully we’ll make a decision here in the next couple of weeks. I’ve been trying to figure out my next project as well. So I’ve been spending some time on that. I feel like I have some momentum with The Rideshare Killer, so I definitely wanna kinda keep things going, but at the same time, it’s hard to really have an idea how The Rideshare Killer is actually going to do yet, since we’re still so early in that process. So it really makes budgeting and sort of figuring out what is next tough. I’ve mentioned my film noir thriller script that we’ve been working on. That still needs a little more development, but I’m sort of thinking, it’s a little more expensive than The Rideshare Killer.

I’m sort of thinking that’s a good follow-up if The Rideshare Killer does well. It’s a similar film in terms of tone and scope, as I said, a little more expensive, but it’s very similar in the sense it’s a mystery thriller, and really at the end of the day, The Rideshare Killer is a mystery thriller. So if I can figure out how to sell The Rideshare Killer, if my… if I can get a sales… I mean, get a good distributor and they can kind of figure out some paths to monetize it. If I can sell The Rideshare Killer, I can probably sell this other movie as well. But of course the reverse is true as well. If I can’t sell The Rideshare Killer, I think there’s a high probability I’m gonna have trouble selling this film as well. Because as I said, just in terms of tone and scope, they would be very similar, very similar films. So that’s a possibility.

I’ve also got a super low budget, romantic comedy, which I think could be shot here in Los Angeles very, very cheaply. So I’m sort of exploring that as well. If you’re in Los Angeles and know of a dive bar that could be shot at very, very, very cheaply, preferably in the San Fernando Valley, because that’s where I am, definitely drop me a line, just Because that’s really one of the biggest hurdles to getting this project off the ground, is finding a dive bar that we can really use. We probably need to shoot there for, I don’t know, six, eight, 10 days. A lot of the production would be at this dive bar. Obviously with COVID, a lot of bars are still closed, or if they’re opening up, they wanna get that revenue.

So we’d probably have to get, we’d probably have to go in after hours, which is fine. We could do black out the windows and shoot day for night if we really had to. So we could probably make it work if a bar is closed or….  but anyways, these are sort of the logistics I’ve got to work out to get that project off the ground. Again though, just in terms of the budgeting and the financing of it as well, I wouldn’t mind just getting a little better idea with The Rideshare Killer and kinda how it’s gonna do before I make really any major decisions. But this low budget rom com I might be able to do so cheaply it might not really make any difference. But as I said, I’ve got to get a couple of things lined up and the main thing is the bar.

If I can get the bar cheap enough, I think I can figure how to shoot it super, super, super cheap. Anyways, that’s kinda the main things I’ve been working on this week. So now let’s get into the main segment. Today I am interviewing writer-director, Kerry Mondragon. Here is the interview.

Ashley: Welcome Kerry to the Selling Your Screenplay Podcast. I really appreciate you coming on the show with me today.

Kerry: Hey, thanks for having me. I was a big fan. I’m glad to be on.

Ashley: Yeah. Well, thank you. Thank you. Thank you. So to start out, maybe you can tell us a little bit about your background. Where did you grow up and how did you get interested in the entertainment business?

Kerry: Yeah. So I was born in Tucson, Arizona and I lived there for, till I was about like 12, 13. And I was just always, I mean, I was always drawn to film as a sort of escape early on, and I’d sneak into like the dollar 50 movie theaters and stuff like that as a kid. It was always just like… it was also really weird. I remember Trainspotting, just strange movies, but also like Romeo and Juliet in 1996. So I was always really drawn to it. It just seemed so unattainable, I think when I was a kid. Especially in the desert there in Tucson, but I did have one girl in my elementary school who was like in that movie Tank Girl, if anybody’s familiar with that, and that was like, I was like, “Wow, she’s just so cool, she’s in this movie.”

So then later on we moved, I was homeschooled a little bit, then we moved to Marine County, which is a completely different world. It’s much more wealthy, and we didn’t really come from that growing up. So it was a bit of a culture shock in that, but it was interesting because I had some issues at the middle school there and then I got homeschooled again. But during that, that was when I wrote my first script when I was like 13, which was a pretty trippy sort of script. I don’t even remember it fully. But and then yeah, after that it was high school sort of shenanigans in high school got out of, kinda lost track a little bit.

I was into poetry growing up, and then yeah, then it was, I got a job at an ad agency where it was just the basis of my film education, because I was just working on from a production standpoint, more of like line producing. I really got a sense for how much it costs to make, I mean, and it was just sort of back-to-back things and it was all different projects, got able to able to test equipment, different directors, seeing how the, some of them storyboard, some of them don’t, different cities, things like that. So that, it really helped with that, completely uncreative. And then when I was out of there from the, it gave me a little bit more confidence to actually start seeing my dream of writing-directing.

Ashley: Yeah. So let me touch on that a little bit. So you get out of high school and then you get a job at this ad agency. Did you just, you started as a PA and worked your way up? Did you get, did you have some experience before that going in, then you became a line producer on these advertisements, these ads that they were creating?

Kerry: No, I mean, I didn’t… It was one of those things in high school where it was like I didn’t, we didn’t have the money to go to or even apply really to good schools also in combination with me just not wanting to go to college, I guess. But I did go for a little bit to community college, took some screenwriting classes and intro to film some stuff like that. And then I just dropped out and I got a job at this ad agency as a PA. It was one of those things where it just was like, it was a good enough job at a good enough company where it didn’t make sense for me to go back to college. And that just sort of like, it kind of was like that for the rest of my career. Yeah.

Ashley: Got you. Okay. So that actually sounds like a great background for someone like yourself that wants to be a writer-director, really learning the ins and outs of production. So let’s talk about some of these first two shorts. I noticed on IMDb, you did a short called The Magic Tower, and then you also did one called Meet Me at a Funeral. It looks like you directed, produced or wrote in some combination, those shorts. Maybe talk about those shorts a little bit. How did you get those funded, how did you get them produced? And then what did you do to them? Did you send them to festivals and ultimately, how did they sort of move you along with your career?

Kerry: Yeah, those are pretty interesting. Well one of them, The Magic Tower one, is like one that it just is sort of irrelevant. It never really came out. And it was like for, in conjunction with CalArts and this, one of my friends who got me into that and it. We tried to remove it off IMDb and they just won’t pull it down. So that one sort of went nowhere, but then there’s the Meet Me at a Funeral one was really, I mean, it was great. It was, we had, Zoe had written this script and it was great. And we just, we went out and we got Harold who was an actor on that. We didn’t have money. I’d just gotten off the Spike Lee thing, assisting him which was huge obviously. He was supportive of that, so we started Kickstarter because that was how Spike did his film before.

And I kinda learned the, how to make it work effectively with Kickstarter. It was like, right when Kickstarter was like a big, big thing, and we just went for it and I think we raised like $35,000, or something to get it done. But what was interesting, I’ll tell you what the learning was in that, was, I, me, at my personal stage in everything had been going at it completely like, it’s a great lesson for me to learn, maybe other people to learn is, if you think about the project, it’s like, let me get the best camera, let me get the best location, the best actor, and then you just don’t think about the heart of it, the soul of it, the script, the story. You’re only thinking what rewards you’re gonna get.

Is this gonna go to this festival, or this festival? So that was like a, such an acute example for me of like, well, here’s what happens when you just don’t really focus as much on the sort of soul of the thing. And that… So when I made Tyger Tyger, when I started to, I just vowed to kinda just do it completely different where it was like, I’m not going to worry. I’m gonna shoot the film no matter what. Even if I don’t have actors, I’m still gonna go out there and shoot the same thing on this date and I’m gonna do it differently. It’s like, I’m gonna only focus on what I can contribute to it, and I can’t control what comes out of it. So that was a pretty good lesson.

Ashley: Yeah. Yeah, for sure. So let’s dig into Tyger Tyger for a minute. Maybe to start out you can give us a quick pitch or a logline. What is Tyger Tyger all about?

Kerry: It’s about a girl, well, to me, it’s about a girl who’s sitting in a waiting room getting enough courage to walk out of the front door. That’s like the whole movie. But it’s a daydream fantasy of what’s playing out in her head in the waiting room, but it’s kind of been, it was a personal story for me. I had just gotten sober during that time, and it was a, there was a lot of stuff, a lot of things going through my head and a lot of… and that story was like something that just made perfect sense to me. I knew that it was about a sort of Robin Hood character who robs a pharmacy for this life-saving medication to go deliver it into a free society of like nomads and people that are living off the fringes.

So then, so that’s how it started, like lay down the gauntlet, they rob the pharmacy, she doesn’t speak for the first 15 pages and then they’re off to go deliver this medication. Yeah, so definitely adventure film.

Ashley: Got you. So let’s talk about your writing process a little bit. What does your writing process look like? Where do you typically write? Do you have like a home office? Do you need that ambient noise at a Starbucks? And when do you typically write, do you bash out 12-hour days? Do you try and write a couple hours a day? Just what is your writing process typically like?

Kerry: That is such a good question. It is a, it, always in the morning, like first thing, because I feel like during the day I’m like, it almost feels like I’m filtering things. So I’m like going out, I’m getting all this content, all this information is like coming into me and then I kinda process it overnight. And then in the morning it’s like I’m uncontaminated from the world and I just like bang, either…. either I’m gonna bang out a lot or it’s gonna be, but I think the environment is so critical, I’ve learned, that like… Like I’m in Mexico right now working on another project and I wanted to start writing in LA and then, but it was so, for me at that moment, it was, there was not, it was really impossible for me in that place.

I needed something, I think, with the pandemic and everything that was going on, it was at the level of like the same thing happening over and over again. It was hard for me to get to think outside of that to break that. And so I needed to just leave. Then, but also the only other thing I’ll say on that is, Tyger Tyger was really, the process of that was it was location-dictated, a lot of it. And not just because of the location is filled with so much content, but also because it was an ultra-low budget film. So I knew that the location and those, all those logistical elements had to be considered, right? Like I can’t have a bunch of police shootouts and stuff like that. So I… and it’s interesting because I’m here now and it’s very similar. It’s like working on the same project, like with some of the Mayan indigenous and it’s the same thing. It’s like these same things. It’s very similar to Slab City where it’s a capricious environment. Things are, it’s like alive and it’s really, it’s almost impossible to write anything in that location unless you’re there, so…

Ashley: What do you spend in terms of outlining versus actually opening up final draft and writing out script pages? And we can talk specifically about Tyger Tyger. Like, what did your process look like for that? Did you spend a number of months just kind of outlining thinking it through, and then once you open up final draft, how long does it take you to actually write the script?

Kerry: That’s a good story that’s related to your podcast actually. So I was listening to your podcast. It was Brandon Ryan’s. I don’t know if you remember him from…

Ashley: Oh, I do. Absolutely. Yeah. From Canada.

Kerry: And so he, I had heard your guys’ interview and I was at the stage where I had spent like about a year and a half or two years writing the first 10 pages of Tyger Tyger. That pharmacy robbery, it was so like, down to every detail, it was like this very elaborate heist. It would’ve made a cool movie in itself just that I had to simplify it. But I, so I spent that time doing that. Then I actually hired Brandon to help me a little bit with that part of it, which going through it. During that same time, I was going to Slab City and getting all this stuff, getting photos, putting a look book, and it got to a point where Brandon, who’s, like I love him. He’s awesome. He was like, “Look man, that world just seems so crazy down there.”

He’s like, “I’m in Canada, dude. A lot of the stuff you’re… like, if all that’s kinda true and they’re like… Man, I mean, you’re really the best.” He really gave me confidence, I’d say, to say like, write your story on that. Like, no one… I can’t… it’s hard to put it into a genre of what’s, you know. And so it was a great thing for me to kind of build my own voice and own it in a way. And yeah, but I think the thing that I’ve learned now going on to another one, is like I do write really quickly. So like a couple of weeks. So it took me like year and a half on the first 10 pages, and then it took me like two weeks to write the last part of it. And then I’ve written a couple more since then, and it’s been the same process.

Like it, I’m writing notes down, I have all these books that have all this, like all my notes and stuff. So I’ll write it down, but then right when I open up final draft, it’ll probably take me about two weeks to get that first, maybe less, to get the first draft. Then I take all the scene headings and I put them in another document. And then I know generally okay, 70 scenes, like day and night. Okay. Blah, blah, blah. All right. Then you’re like… then I fill in little, it’s almost like an outline, so I’m doing it backwards a little bit. Yeah.

Ashley: How does your background in line producing affect your writing? Are you always, do you ever turn that line producer off and just go into the writing or? Especially something like this where you’re planning on shooting low budget, how does that sort of play into what you’re actually writing?

Kerry: Yeah. That, I think it’s really, it was really good for me. It’s really, really helped. It’s good and bad. Here’s why it’s good. It’s good because yes, I am like very cognizant of what I know I can shoot in these locations. And also the cast. I know if there’s a non-professional actor that that would work for that role because I’d know that person, I’ve met them or, and I just know what things cost, in a weird way. Like just that police reference. I knew when I read Tyger Tyger, initially it was like 1989. And I knew that if I showed one police officer 1989, it was gonna cost about 10 grand if he had a car, because you got to get the car dated, you got to everything, has to look so specific to that time period.

So those little things, it’s like, you just kinda, I just knew just writing that word in there was gonna be a lot of money. So it’s good, and then it’s also bad because it’s like, there’s too much control on my plate with that. So I don’t have somebody that can push back. It’s easier for me to bulldoze over things. Like, oh, I know what that’s gonna cost, or no, I wrote it for that or that, and it just limits, so sometimes it can be really limiting to turn that off, especially, yeah. So…

Ashley: Got you. What does your development process look like? Once you had like a first draft that you were happy with, who do you send it to? Do you have some writer friends, some actor friends? Who do you get notes from, and then how do you sort of parse those notes when they come back to you?

Kerry: I had to really learn the skill of filtering notes on this last one, because, I mean, it’s like, that’s a very important skill to know. Because I’d send it to actor friends, really established actor friends who they’d give me notes and you’re like, wow, you’re on the pedestal. You’re like at the height of this stuff. So your notes, it’s almost like those are the golden notes. Right? But then it’s like, well, wait a second. Like that, then you’ve got to filter… You got to filter it through their gaze or their perspective on it. And then you… So I learned that… I had heard a Paul Thomas Anderson interview on YouTube, and I think he said that he sends it to like, just these random people.

One of them was like a homeless dude or something. It was a funny like group of people. And I kind of have the same thing. Like there’s a poet in San Francisco, this guy, [inaudible 00:21:58]. Then my stepdad’s another one and then there’s about four or five other that I really, really take that feedback. Then the next problem that I ran into was the test screenings of the first cut, rough cut after that. And then that I don’t think I’ve mastered that filtering thing. Because you’re getting questionnaires and you’re like, that one’s really hard.

Ashley: I’m curious. How do you approach screenplay structure? Are you sort of the Syd Field, Blake Snyder where you have your act breaks very clearly laid out, your inciting incident, is it more free form? What is sort of your writing process like in terms of structure?

Kerry: It’s definitely, I always start with… the thing is like the nine-point outline. Right? So I always know where plot point one, plot point two, inciting, where the midpoint is, I’ll know those things, but part of me, there’s an allegiance I have to like the real nature of the world and experiences. For example, on Tyger Tyger it’s like I got a lot of shit for not, maybe some, some people either really like when they get to Slab City or the free city and the story breaks down or whatever, from a narrative point of view. But to me it’s like that, it was written in that way where it’s like they get there, their car, the car gets stuck in the sand and everything is thrown out the window.

It’s the same thing as like a [inaudible 00:23:22] thrower or whoever would come to back in the day and they’d pull their boats up and they’d torch their boats and they’d have no idea where they were gonna go. And it’s very similar in that, with that one. So I think with… so I don’t ever like wanna get tied to the structure of things just because I know it works and I think, yeah. So it does help in the beginning kinda getting that lay to the land.

Ashley: Yeah. Got you. Okay. So let’s talk about just getting this film produced. Once you had a script that you liked what was your next steps? You’re also one of the producers. How did you guys go about raising the money and just getting this thing into production?

Kerry: Well, it was really, really scrappy. I mean, like I said, it was I had gone there and I had met the locals, the non-professionals and I basically came back and I’m like, I’m gonna shoot this movie with Cody and his friends who were shooting each other with BB guns in Bombay Beach, and that was like what I was going for, but then I had hired two interns and they, we all kinda talked and we’re like, “Well, maybe we…” one of us is from USC. So like there were some… we were just brainstorming like, “Well, maybe let’s send some hail Mary’s out like on IMDbPro and just see what we can get with it.” So we did that. And then I had already had, I mean, I had about $40,000, really, that I could do as a proof of funds situation.

So we would, it was all offers. Like I just was blasting out emails, like if people that were… but the strategy I took was really, I felt really good, which was, I would go on and find an actor like, let’s say [inaudible 00:25:06] or, at that point on Tyger Tyger it was like, I went to my own private Idaho, and I went into like what some of, there was a priest around there and now he’s a manager. So he represents clients. I knew that he had a specific, like, I could almost cast a movie with just his pool of actors. And they were very… So he had a good artistic, creative sense to the things and a roster. So I would just go through the, I would just send them emails and I’d say, “Hey, there’s an offer only, interested in X, Y, Z.”

Then slowly I got like with him, his name is Allen. He had me meet with one actor who was Craig Stark, who’s in the movie. And then it just, then the confidence kind of grew a little bit with, on both sides and more accurate than I would… I just started pulling it together and kinda casting it myself that way. Then when Dylan, yeah, Dylan was the same thing. It was reached out to Bonnie, his manager and thank God she, somehow she got it to him and then he read it and he responded to it. Yeah. Which was great.

Ashley: Got you. So then did you guys go raise more money or you guys 40,000 was your budget?

Kerry: I went to my old ad agency, to the ad agency where I had a 401(k). And I had like all this really good stock. I had like Facebook, class A, like all this, like really like right when they had gone public. I reached out to the HR guy there, and I hadn’t talked to him for like five years. I’m like, “Hey, I’m shooting this movie in the desert and I need to cash in the 401(k).” He’s like, “That’s really stupid. You’re gonna get hit with all this stuff, and all these fees, 40% of it will be taken.” I said, “No, but I have just like a legal thing now. I’ve signed paperwork with SAG.” Because there is… so there was a bit of a, it was a tricky thing to dance around. So I did, I was able to get, I think closer to like 80,000 when we went out there, but we ran out of money on the last day.

So it was like, it was a real, I mean, it was a risk for sure in doing that. And, but then when I came back, I mean, it was brutal when I came back, it was like SAG had shut the film down on the last day because they like, because we ran out of money and there was a confusion on paychecks and stuff. So that got handled, but then on that day, I went and took some shady loan out on something online and then got more money to pay it. So then, and then I took that at the same time and edited a rough cut to go get money. And, but the best part about it was we had left a script at the pharmacist location that we shot at and his name was Shane and Shane read it.

Then he texted me later and he was like, “Hey, I don’t know if you guys are looking for like investors or anything, but I read the script because it was left here, and I just had such, I saw the way you shot and everything. It was just a… I’d love to invest.” I was like, “That would be incredible Shane.” At the same time, I’m like, hadn’t paid rent like two months. So, I mean, it was like, it was a beautiful… it worked itself out.

Ashley: Yeah, yeah. And sometimes that’s what it takes is just putting yourself out there and letting the planets align. So how can people see Tyger Tyger? What’s the release schedule gonna be like?

Kerry: Well, it’s out right now. So it got released during, it was out for a couple of weeks in theaters. It still might be in one in Clifton, New Jersey. But it’s, right now it’s on, somebody just sent me a link saying it was like 14 on the top Box Office thing. However that, whatever that means with the like aggregator on Rotten Tomatoes, but they yeah. So it’s out. It’s out on Prime, it’s out on all the platforms that I, yeah. Pretty much all on Fandango now.

Ashley: Yeah. What’s the best way for people to keep up with what you’re doing? Twitter, Facebook, a blog, anything you’re comfortable sharing I will round up for the show notes.

Kerry: Yeah. Yeah. Like I had to fire up Instagram again, which so that’s @kerrymondragon is my handle. And then that’s probably the best way. Yeah.

Ashley: Okay. Perfect. Well, Kerry, I really appreciate you coming on the show today and talking with me. Good luck with this film and hopefully we’ll see you again with another film in a bit.

Kerry: Sweet man. Thank you so much.

Ashley: Thank you. We’ll talk to you later.

Kerry: Bye.

Ashley: Bye.

I just wanna talk quickly about SYS Select. It’s a service for screenwriters to help them sell their screenplays and get writing assignments. The first part of the service is the SYS Select screenplay database. Screenwriters upload their screenplays along with a logline, synopsis and other pertinent information like budget and genre, and then producers search for and hopefully find screenplays they wanna produce. Dozens of producers are in the system looking for screenplays right now. There have been a number of success stories come out of this service, you can find out about all the SYS Select successes by going to Also on SYS Podcast Episode #222, I talk with Steve Deering who was the first official success story to come out of the SYS Select database.

When you join SYS Select you get access to the screenplay database along with all the other services that we’re providing to SYS Select members. These services include the newsletter, the monthly newsletter goes out to a list of over 400 producers who are actively seeking writers and screenplays. Each SYS Select member can pitch one screenplay in this monthly newsletter. We also provide screenwriting leads, we have partnered with one of the premiere paid screenwriting leads services, so I can syndicate their leads to SYS Select members. There are lots of great paid leads coming in each week from our partner, recently we’ve been getting five to 10 high quality paid leads per week. These leads run the gamut.

There’s producers looking for a specific type of spec script to producers looking to hire a screenwriter to write up one of their ideas or properties. They are looking for shorts, features, TV and web series, pilots, all types of projects. If you sign up for SYS Select, you’ll get these leads emailed directly to you several times per week. Also, you get access to the SYS Select forum where we will help you with your logline and query letter and answer any screenwriting related questions that you might have. We also have a number of screenwriting classes that are recorded and available in the SYS Select forum. These are all the classes that I’ve done over the years, so you’ll have access to those whenever you want once you join.

The classes cover every part of writing your screenplay from concept to outlining, to the first act, second act, third act as well as other topics like writing short films and pitching your projects in person. Once again, if this sounds like something you’d like to learn more about, please go to Anyway, that’s our show, thank you for listening.